AP lovers who abandon AP ... for Rolex

[rolexwatchfan]

Sorry but I'm certain the MAJORITY of people would actually would NOT want this, nor utilize it....
For the hardcore franken builders here, and people who buy & have access to gen movements, yes it is great! (People with deep pockets for this hobby.)
But, for the average guy (who complains about the price of a franken AP, mind you) - he's not going to want to spend thousands on movements, hundreds each on crowns and pushers, track down VERY-elusive real-gold Rotors, etc.... And keep in mind, if you have the money and desire to even do this - you have to contend with FINDING/SOURCING the parts/movements - which are NOT sold on the open market very often as they are only on an EXCHANGE basis from AP. Meaning the customer doesn't get their old parts back. Sure, back door sales happen, BUT it's a whole nother world from the inexpensive and readily available Rolex crowns, bezels, crystals, movement parts...!!

It's not entirely true, thus its sounds like the AP crowd is more "forgiving" to the flaws of their reps. We are not, but of course the only alternative for AP lovers is to "franken" our watches at great logistic effort and expense. Lets imagine for a second now - lets say that cloned 3126 will hit the AP market with ROO's correct DW, crown position and thin case set. Gen interchangeable dials, hands and other components but it will be in the $1.5k price range. There will be 80% buyers that will be happy with their new watches being 1:1 with GEN and won't touch it and the rest will still "franken" their replicas installing aforementioned parts just for the love of the hobby. They doing it now tweaking 7750's, they will do it to their $1500 models as well.
Market sets the standards according to the expectations and crowd willing to pay for the "upgrade". We got used to $600-$800 flawed models, we will be happy to spend twice as much for gen-like watches as well. Exactly the same way you paid for ARF Daytona pig with the lipstick on $450 and with new 904 Noob Daytona coming out soon (predicted $800-$1K price range) you will be more than happy to get 1:1 fully functioning watch for fraction of the gen price tag. And you'll still be able to make it even closer to GEN adding genuine dial, hands, bezel or whatever you desire to impress RWI with your "how I did it" pictorials.
Unfortunately all progress is painful and costly, whether we like it or not. New standards will dictate price increases related to the new developments. Remember that "the best sub" is often the most expensive one.

 

[gigi77]

Sorry but I'm certain the MAJORITY of people would actually would NOT want this, nor utilize it....

I agree, the hardcore modder would love this, but probably they make less than 1% of the audience of ROO reps.

What most of us would like, is a ARF daytona like rep (very good outside look, gen dimensions and not working or semi working chrono) out of the box in the 450$-600$ range.

 

[slaughterer62]

The reason I am gravitating more towards Rolex Frankens is not because the cost is lower or the supply chain for Rolex gen parts is a little easier to navigate (actually, my main source dried up recently), it is mainly because I find Rolex design more comfortable to wear. The Rolex bracelets are far superior IMO to AP bracelets in comfort and adjustability. The Rolex typical case size of 40mm on avg is more easy on the wrist than a 42mm case size ROO with large CGs and 15mm on avg thickness. If I contemplate an AP that I would personally wear, I only think of Franken configurations of certain 42mm ROOs whose design I like and smaller ROs. With the existing flaws, there are only a very few stock JF AP ROO and RO reps that attract me after the usual mods (DW, cyclops, etc.). I think I listed these once, but if I were to say which standard JF reps I could be happy with after relatively little modding (there always has to be some modding though, as the DW is always unacceptable to me) it would be: the BumbleBee (an amazing rep), 44mm FC, Singapore GP, Marcus, Ginza, Doha (very underestimated rep), LBJ, Diver (SS, FC and Cer), and the JF 15400s. This is a poor state of affairs as those aforementioned models are not really my absolute favorite APs, which are Montauk Highway, 15300, 15202, GPs, and RBs. It is stupid, but I end up buying quite alot of JF APs in the hope that one day I will find the gen dial/tach/hand set to Franken it. Until I get that Franken process underway through luck, opportunity and capital outlay these stock JF AP ROOs usually remain un-worn in storage as part of a zombie donor park.

 

[tosoboso]

I'm a little surprised to see this thread going in the direction it is going in. I have the feeling that the debate is a bit overheated already

But from personal experience, I agree with what jpohl402 has said: remember that not many of those active in the hobby have access to AP spares let alone the desire to dump money on generally overpriced and, more often than not, rather imperfect parts that were likely rejected by AP quality control before they came to be available at the grey aftermarket.

As someone who had (note the past tense here) relatively stable access to AP spares (incl. brand new movements, dials, hands and the like) my experience says that more often than not it makes no financial sense to purchase those as they are so expensive that a properly built franken can cost up to 40-50% of a second hand gen (not counting time and coordination). So even if we had a working Asian copy movement that would be just that: a working Asian movement. It will most likely be unreliable and not take many gen parts and even if it did those are so expensive on their own that I can imagine that no more than 15-20 of the well known AP fans would be willing to invest time and money to have those movements modded (remember that a mere AP hour/minute wheel can cost what a second hand Rolex dial does; not to mention the practical impossibility of getting golden rotors as was already pointed out above). So comparing Asian Rolex movements and, possibly, Asian AP calibres is to compare Apple(s) and oranges (or more like Nokia(s).

So as much as I'd like to see a good clone movement, I'd not be willing to commission any work on that other than the usual oiling/servicing.

All in all, more and more I'm inclined to think that the big brands let the likes of JF and Noob produce their timepieces as a (completely free for the genuine maker) taster for the real thing. Just think about how many people started off their hobby here and then got the real deal And because gen rollies are seemingly more accessible than gen aps, many of the hobby members changed camps: for the real (Rolex) thing.

The end

 

[slaughterer62]

What most of us would like, is a ARF daytona like rep (very good outside look, gen dimensions and not working or semi working chrono) out of the box in the 450$-600$ range.

It would be very easy to devise an ROO with non-working chrono and gen dimension. Whether the market would embrace it is an open question. Those ARF Daytonas are cosmetically very impressive, no doubt, but disappointing on a movement level, i.e. pigs with tremendous designer make-up. And it only takes one or two moves from a competitor with a real clone 4130 to kill off the A7750 Daytona market. Same risk for a non-working chrono ROO, I think. Nevertheless, I would love to see an AP rep with gen dimension case and dials, but most likely the rep dials that will accompany them will not at all achieve the same astounding quality of the gen AP dials.

 

[slaughterer62]

Tosoboso, we posted at the same time. You give a very balanced view which I think is correct. The only thing that made me snicker pleasantly was this...

"And because gen rollies are seemingly more accessible than gen aps..."

He he, the waiting list in the EU (I know it is different in places like Bahrain, etc.) for some SS sports models from Rolex is getting even more absurd than the waiting list for a RO.

 

[tosoboso]

slaughterer62 - Sir, the waiting time for the 2017 43mm SD in the UK is 5-6 years and the new ceramic Daytona waiting list is actually closed. What I meant that many modern entry level Rolexes are more easily available on the second hand market than the equivalent AP, at least from a price point of view.

But I too agree with your points above: I've found myself in a situation where I'm not willing to build AP frankens (let alone acquire stock ones) any more. Maybe I'll get the bug again in a year time, but for the moment I only want to complete my 15202 build and that will be that (and that seems to be costing again a good 30-40 % of the gen one). With the large selection of recent quality Tudors I see little reason to invest more in literally unsellable frankens (just have a quick look at the sales section) than some very agreeable gen timepieces with some very pleasant in-house movements

 

[slaughterer62]

"I've found myself in a situation where I'm not willing to build AP frankness..."

He he, I am in the opposite situation: I am planning alot of Frankens over the next 2-3 years. I do not know if the results of my Franken labors will sell on this rep marketplace (I doubt it, it is an illiquid and partially absurd market), but it does not matter to me, as I hardly ever sell. But a 15202 Franken is a noble project: it is really the most desirable AP of all.

 

[FastPaced]

I think I was misunderstood when I said that the AP reps should be cloned so try except gen parts.
I did mot mean it should be dene that way because everyone wants to build Frankens. If they were cloned to look and work like a gen (correct dw alignment, correct crown/pusher alignment), then people could if they want swap those parts, but the majority would not be co concerned with doing that because it would already look correct. So the best example is the Noob SA3125 v2 SD4k. It has all the correct dimensions, correct time setting as Gen and interchangeable (some) parts. Most people will get it a leave it alone because it is already very close to gen. You can tweak it with a few Gen parts if you want.
So if we could have the equivalent of the Noob SA3135 v2 SD4k (and that was only $370 when it was available) in a ROO, is what I meant.

 

[TheDonSL]

A Hot Chinese woman in a Ferrari told me there is a new movement coming... Supposed to be thinner case and deep date wheel. Don’t know if it’s going to happen soon or when, For all we know, it could be just the thin chrono movement w correct seconds at 6 on models like the Pride of Italy, etc.

In the end, you will still need the correct date wheel no matter what from Mikey because the factories will not make the correct date wheels. You still need a prof crystal if you want better than gen look of the dial. Thickness in the end to me doesn’t matter since not many people know how thick an ROO is and when in the wrist it’s hard to tell. If they do decide to do this and recreate tachys and dials for all the models, we will probably have to deal with V1, V2, V3 all over again in terms of getting dial color and tappissiere correct. I for one and very happy with my modded non franken pieces and enjoy wearing them daily.

The 7750 is stable even with the seconds at 12 module. Sure, the movements are dirty, in fact I just received a brand new one with a screw missing over the plate that keeps the keyless gears in place in the movement ! Luckily I had the part and fixed it and it runs great. Is it a Swiss movement? No, but you get what you pay for and the fun and excitement of taking that nasty small rep date wheel out of the movement and putting in the correct one is so much fun to me and I enjoy the before and after photos to show the achievement.

It also makes you appreciate the work you’ve put into it. I mean, a friend of mine asked me to buy my navy themes. I was happy to build him one but not sell him mine... the time and energy in modding, not to mention waiting for a gen strap or Jacob etc to get the proper fitment is an investment and an achievement in the end and only achievable by those in the know. Sure I could have sold it, but I wanted to teach him about the hobby and show him how much work and effort goes into this. Noobs don’t understand that you can’t just buy an AP JF our of the box looking the way we want it to. In the end if we get an immaculate rep, everyone will have the perfect AP.

i guess what I’m saying is you appreciate the rep more after all the work you put into it, VS getting it out of the box. Sure I’d love to get an AP rep almost perfect out if the box, but will I appreciate it more than the ones I put so much work into or I paid for someone else to mod to my liking?

Now was that all a dream, or was this reality? Was the Ferrari and woman a dream??? Hmmm, we shall see... we shall see...

 

[TheDonSL]

slaughterer62 Trust me my friend, most of the AP crowd will be back on board around November this year. :matty:
Including myself I'm ready for my NEW Bumble Bee and Montauk Highway :wowa:

Please give some more insight fellow AP brother! What’s November new AP movement?

 

[sierra-tango]

Dang it - never been AP addicted :matty:
Anyway, may the best REP MAKER create an awesome chrono movement so you can enjoy your ROO's in the long run !!! :drool:
Keeping my fingers crossed, gentlemen !!!

 

[BIONONE]

Please give some more insight fellow AP brother! What’s November new AP movement?

2O18 is gonna be an expensive year hahaha

 

[SuperLory]

2O18 is gonna be an expensive year hahaha

not that 2013 - 14 -15 -16 -17 came out cheap..

 

[BIONONE]

not that 2013 - 14 -15 -16 -17 came out cheap..

you're so right haha

But at least we don't pay the gen prices - the excuse i tell myself every time there pops up an overpriced flawed ROO Chrono :laughing:

 

[rolexwatchfan]

TheDonSL U got mail.