AP lovers who abandon AP ... for Rolex

[zaeim]

Nice thread J

I love both brand, I have Gen’s and rep’s from both brand, I have also a franken and moded AP.

I think we can’t compare Rolex to AP that’s why I have both, in my opinion AP is more sportive than Rolex, they are not wear the same way.

The quality of today replica is very good but I think Rolex rep’s is much better than the APs rep’s, especially those come from ARF on 904l.

APs replica has many flaws so I understand people who abandon AP for Rolex.

Cheers

 

[taint it sweet]

Well, I’m just getting into AP from Panerai. Maybe I’ll browse the M2M for those leaving for Rolex.

 

[MrBeasy]

slaughterer62 - my dear friend, as you know I haven’t been very active on the forum for completely different reasons.

But I am not abandoning the AP ship. Just taking a sebatical

Still, as you mentioned vintage Daytonas, here’s a recent acquisition of mine which I intend to upgrade to a gen dial and gen movement level but that’s that on the Rolex front for me. I much more prefer the Patek challenge...

Thank you for creating this fantastic thread, it’s thought provoking and will eventually resurrect the AP franken I guess

where is the pic of the Daytona please?

 

[tosoboso]

MrBeasy

can’t quite figure out the image posting yet, but there was a thumbnail image embedded. Here it is again:

 

[tosoboso]

I was thinking about the topic last night. I guess I am less and less inclined to buy any noob/jf APs as they all lack attention to detail in the sense of not putting in enough effort to bring the models to a high enough level even when they can - just as already pointed out - wrong dial colours, wrong dial paterns and the like.

So when I say that I am still in the AP camp that probably means the AP franken one

 

[androme]

I think I've owned 7/8 Rolexes in total, both franken and normals since I came across this place looking for a breitling last year. I've only owned 3 APs in that time, curently only have a modded ROO Diver and a Rubberclad that I'm going to get modded in a similar fashion. I can't add much on top of what everyone else has already stated but for me, I can franken up a Rollie for far less, get parts for less and general work takes much less time when it comes to the case itself which is why I've done things like Mikey DW and prof xtals etc on my APs. My superfranken v6s project got me all excited thanks to Rob's help with the movement side of things (buying about £700 in gen movement parts) - I wouldn't know where to begin with an AP cloned movement but afaik, the movements haven't been cloned so it's more we're stuck with Miyota or Asian movements that can't be frankens in the same way. I think the day we have a cloned AP a sliver movement will be the day I buy more APs. Personally, I feel Rollies are more everyday watches but APs are more summer/beach/special occasions personally.

 

[markiemark]

I put a modded AP for sale since I don't wear it anymore. It's not because of AP, but a 44mm AP is actually too big for me. A model I bought and sold several times. Every time it was sold rather quick, now it's there for more than 2 weeks! I guess the love for AP is gone...

 

[mskwatch]

I think this hobby is quite dynamic and taste evolves with time. I got in with a 15400 by TF and some Panerais, at a certain moment got a RO Diver which was stolen, then a modded blue 42mm ROO M2m and now I'm quite tempted to get the 44mm ROO of markiemark. But still I hate the wrong date on my 42mm ROO and understand that I need a franked or a bigger 44mm ROO to live without this huge flaw.

A couple of years ago I never considered ROO as option for me because I thought RO is enough and Panerai will take the role of the big watch in my collection. Now I've changed my mind, but who knows maybe someday I will get a Rolex as well?

 

[FastPaced]

I haven't really looked into the 44mm AP's because they look kind of lopsided (heavy on crown side), might have to look at them.
But just look at the AP reps price compared to the Rolex rep price. Almost $700 for an AP rep that has big tells, vs a
Rolex rep for $400 that doesn't have huge tells lime the AP ones. Maybe the one big tell on the Rolex is the coloring on the Ceramic bezels. Bit that is a $40 fix, know loom at the price to mod a AP, thousands in labor alone.

 

[BIONONE]

I haven't really looked into the 44mm AP's because they look kind of lopsided (heavy on crown side), might have to look at them.
But just look at the AP reps price compared to the Rolex rep price. Almost $700 for an AP rep that has big tells, vs a
Rolex rep for $400 that doesn't have huge tells lime the AP ones. Maybe the one big tell on the Rolex is the coloring on the Ceramic bezels. Bit that is a $40 fix, know loom at the price to mod a AP, thousands in labor alone.

very good point here IMO.

I think we need a DD module and a bit more refined effort in detail regarding the APs... But I'm sure JF is going places this year.

 

[FastPaced]

At a minimum for AP reps that now cost over $600, we need the clone movement that will give use the correct datewheel position and pushers/crown were in the correct position (also fix the lugs so a Gen strap and plots fit without gap). That is kind of what you would expect for that money. But $600+ and instant tells from those 2 things combined with a 7750 that is almost sure to break is hard to swallow.

 

[mskwatch]

I haven't really looked into the 44mm AP's because they look kind of lopsided (heavy on crown side), might have to look at them.
But just look at the AP reps price compared to the Rolex rep price. Almost $700 for an AP rep that has big tells, vs a
Rolex rep for $400 that doesn't have huge tells lime the AP ones. Maybe the one big tell on the Rolex is the coloring on the Ceramic bezels. Bit that is a $40 fix, know loom at the price to mod a AP, thousands in labor alone.

in the gen world ROO are more expensive then Rolex (in general, as I see a lot of steel subs/daytonas daily) so same story on the rep planet
Plus you see less ROO in the wild, so the tells are less evident to the average watch guy, while many are obsessed with Rolex and can spot an average rep easily.

 

[FastPaced]

Yes Gen AP's are more expensive, but that should have no bearing on the rep price. The amount of Gens out there should not matter in how the Rep is made. A Rep should be done as correctly as possible. They will always be flaws, but movements that beak all the time I would expect on a $100 rep, not a $700 AP rep and it doesn't matter if the Gen is 10 times a Rolex Gen, a $700 broken rep that doesn't even tell time is worthless.

 

[Darkimplicates]

If the factory can clone the 4130 movement with working chrono and even 3135 clone. Why can’t they clone the ETA 2892 and DD module ? I bet they can if they wanted to. Even if a AP rep exist with correct crown position and DW but with non working chrono I’ll be more then willing to give up my Frankens for it

 

[FastPaced]

^ or at very least you could swap a LWO in it to get working chrono without having to buy a gen dial and have machine work done.

 

[BIONONE]

If the factory can clone the 4130 movement with working chrono and even 3135 clone. Why can’t they clone the ETA 2892 and DD module ? I bet they can if they wanted to. Even if a AP rep exist with correct crown position and DW but with non working chrono I’ll be more then willing to give up my Frankens for it

+1

thats what i already thought... The non working chronograph on the Daytona was the first step in the right direction i think. I could live without the chrono but with a way better face/ height etc. Dont know why they didn't developed something like this in the past...

But as i already stated - The RM011 clone from ZF (if it will be a true clone) uses a Dubois Depraz module on top of the in-house RM(005) with a bunch of ridiculous deco bridges and plates. So if they try to achieve a correct clone they need to rep the DD module.

And while they are working on it i can imagine that there is the chance of an undecorated (standard) rep DD module on top of a decent looking (3120 clone or) decorated A2892 like we have seen on the JJF Hublot Classic Fusion models...

JF have/had so many gens to replicate their repertoire of high end models... I cannot imagine they never tried to rep the 3120 even if it is a very thin movement with its 4,26mm height it is not as thin as the nautilus 324 SC for example...

All in all a decent clone movement or even an improved a7750 version would be the key to the true AP rep game

 

[slaughterer62]

Yes, I am excited about the ZF RM011 clone as well.
It would surprise me if a Chinese factory could order directly from Dubois Depraz and use them as an OEM supplier of chrono modules. DD is a somewhat opaque fabricator who cater only to the internal Swiss brands. In any case, an A2892 with a Swiss DD module would easily result in an above $1000 ROO. And the A2892 would need to be revisited before this could happen, as it is well known that the Asian 2892s are not as well designed as the A2824s and A28236s.
As for cloning a DD module, while I would consider 75% of the DD modules possible to clone, there is a good 25% of very high precision parts in the DD module that would probably exceed the abilities of he Chinese factories. As for mass assembly, good luck: the Swiss experts at DD sometimes take a full year to assemble and test a run of DD modules. Not saying it is impossible, but the investment in money and time and labor would much larger than currently.
The easiest and laziest compromise is to simply modify the A7750 sec@12 further so that the date read out is in the correct position. It can be done with current sec@12s maybe not perfectly, but a little bit better than the current configuration. This would probably not alter the alignment of the crown and pushers, but they could also revisit the mid-case and thin it a bit with a tachy redesign as the current Asian ROOs has a large amount of free space above the hands usually.
All in all, the Rolex reps are far ahead of the AP reps in movement simulation, with the 3135 and the new 4130 reps even if the Asian 3135 is not a perfect rep of the Rolex movement and not all gen Rolex parts (CPs, balance, etc) are compatible with it.

 

[jpohl402]

What we need is AP reps with clone movements so that parts can start being interchangeable with Gens like Rolex reps.

Sorry but I'm certain the MAJORITY of people would actually would NOT want this, nor utilize it....
For the hardcore franken builders here, and people who buy & have access to gen movements, yes it is great! (People with deep pockets for this hobby.)
But, for the average guy (who complains about the price of a franken AP, mind you) - he's not going to want to spend thousands on movements, hundreds each on crowns and pushers, track down VERY-elusive real-gold Rotors, etc.... And keep in mind, if you have the money and desire to even do this - you have to contend with FINDING/SOURCING the parts/movements - which are NOT sold on the open market very often as they are only on an EXCHANGE basis from AP. Meaning the customer doesn't get their old parts back. Sure, back door sales happen, BUT it's a whole nother world from the inexpensive and readily available Rolex crowns, bezels, crystals, movement parts...!!

 

[jpohl402]

I haven't really looked into the 44mm AP's because they look kind of lopsided (heavy on crown side), might have to look at them.
But just look at the AP reps price compared to the Rolex rep price. Almost $700 for an AP rep that has big tells, vs a
Rolex rep for $400 that doesn't have huge tells lime the AP ones. Maybe the one big tell on the Rolex is the coloring on the Ceramic bezels. Bit that is a $40 fix, know loom at the price to mod a AP, thousands in labor alone.

Compare apples to apples.... In Gen form/cost:
Rolex - approx 10k
AP - 25k-30k and up! (new)
THAT is the reason the AP reps cost $600 vs. $400. Their "real world" cost is more than double!
Yes, there are flaws, and more flaws than Rolex, sure - but they aren't made or priced on FLAWS, they are made & priced on real world cost (tricking down to materials, R&D, etc).
904 steel is plenty cool, don't get me wrong -- BUT it's not even in the same ballpark as Forged Carbon, Ceramic, Cermet, Titanium, etc etc!!!!

 

[BIONONE]

Sorry but I'm certain the MAJORITY of people would actually would NOT want this, nor utilize it....
For the hardcore franken builders here, and people who buy & have access to gen movements, yes it is great! (People with deep pockets for this hobby.)
But, for the average guy (who complains about the price of a franken AP, mind you) - he's not going to want to spend thousands on movements, hundreds each on crowns and pushers, track down VERY-elusive real-gold Rotors, etc.... And keep in mind, if you have the money and desire to even do this - you have to contend with FINDING/SOURCING the parts/movements - which are NOT sold on the open market very often as they are only on an EXCHANGE basis from AP. Meaning the customer doesn't get their old parts back. Sure, back door sales happen, BUT it's a whole nother world from the inexpensive and readily available Rolex crowns, bezels, crystals, movement parts...!!

I agree with you. But the main point here i think is that a gen dial aka the icing on the cake will be possible without slapping an ETA 2892 with a gen DD module into a thinned case with modified crown position etc etc by maximizing the cost up to 1.500 and more (incl. modding).

And sometimes there are great deals for dials where you don't have to pay 1.500 to 2.000$ for a dial... So i mean it would be nice to have gen specs