An American Tragedy

[trailboss99]

Col., if not a problem, could you post SFA's comment here, please?

Mate it's a long and convoluted thread starting with a rant by Pat, he was very upset and I gather reading between the lines he may have known one or more of those killed. Hem mentions later in the thread that he knows for sure that requests for fire support (that was available in very short order) were cancelled by defence personal in Washington. I'm not going to paraphrase the man in case I get it wrong but we all know Pat has some very highly placed contacts and what happened there was wrong.

I can't recall if Pat mentioned it (and I don't have time right now to go thru the thread to find out) but I have heard from other folk I know well whose intell I trust implicitly that the source of the mortar attack was being painted by forces within the embassy and all that was required to stop it dead was intervention by air assets that were in the air and in close proximity.

Now, it's not my fight I know, I'm not an American but I've been in similar situations and I know that if you can't rely on help from those who put you there things can get very sticky indeed.n I suspect that the willingness of certain assets (read "people n the shadows") to put themselves in harm's way is going to be much reduced by this and that is going to be detrimental to the security of the United States.

The fact that one is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for one's country is well and good but at the same time one expects that said country is willing to ensure that all reasonable steps to prevent that needing to happen are taken and that the lives of those willing to put themselves in such a position are not at the bottom of the agenda.

I can't remember the film right now but there's a scene where a bunch of guys get in a sticky situation in some crap hole somewhere and a gunship appears and saves the day resulting in the line "don't you know, we're Americans, we're never out gunned". I am not sure that troops doing a difficult task on the ground can any longer expect that help to arrive in a timely manner if at all and that my friend is a sad and dangerous situation for your country.

I don't as a rule involve myself in debate about US politics unless it effects the world in general but this matter is an affront to fighting men and women everywhere. They got left in the cold for political reasons and that offends me greatly.

Also I have spent a great deal of time in Libya, it's a country I have a personal connection with and I am not convinced the current regime is an improvement over the old. I've met Gaddafi and while he was not an ideal leader by the standards of the west and was certainly ruthless in dealing with opposition he also did a lot of good for Libya. He was a proponent of women's rights, he was a unifying influence in the region and helped keep the peace among the neighbours. Yes he sponsored terrorism in the early days and those he supported were responsible for some heinous acts but I firmly believe he regretted supporting some of those he did. On a personal level I found him by far the most reasonable of the despots I have met and I've been blessed/cursed with meeting some truly despotic rulers and/or seen the results of their rule.

Before anyone cuts me down on the above I suggest you do some serious research on the guy and his regime, there was more to what happened in Libya in the last couple of years than meets the eye. There was an agenda to what transpired and to this day I'm still not sure what it was. He went form bad guy to having the backing and support of the UN and then to public enemy #1 in very short time indeed.

I'm not an apologist for the man, I told him to his face I can't forgive him for his support of those responsible for Lockerbie (and he accepted my stand on the matter as my right) but I firmly believe that his heart was with his country and that makes him at worst no worse than those who cancelled the support for the folk trapped in the Benghazi compound. The difference is he would not have abandoned them to save face with other powers.

Oke, flame away but who of you was there? I've seen things that give me nightmares to this day but few if any of them are from Libya.

I appreciate that this thread is allowed to continue. I believe there is a place on any forum where those who are members, particularly those who spend a great deal of time here, are able to share thoughts related to controversial subjects. Heated discussions are healthy, as long as both parties are willing to consider the others positions with a modicum of respect.

Yup, we will always allow it as long as respect for each other and their views is shown. "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Right up to the point where it becomes personal or offensive to the majority of people.

 

[DoubleWristed]

Well it seem as if you were there and the guy testifying wasn't, sorry my fault.

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[DoubleWristed]

Well it seem as if you were there and the guy testifying wasn't, sorry my fault.

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Meant for Mzcool

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[DoubleWristed]

Here is the link to an article regarding the testimony of Gregory Hicks, the highest ranking State Dept. member in Libya after Ambassador Stevens was killed.

Mind you in my opinion this guy has nothing to gain but everything to lose by testifying as a whistle blower.

http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2143813



This is about 3/4 through that article:

Before long, embassy workers learned that "the ambassador was in a hospital controlled by Ansar al-Sharia, the group whose Twitter feed said it was leading the attack on the consulate," Hicks said.

Hicks said he received several phone calls about the ambassador saying "you can come get the ambassador, we know where he is," but Hicks was worried about "wading into a trap." Then he said they saw on the same Twitter feed as before that Ansar al-Sharia, an al-Qaeda-linked terrorist group, "was calling on an attack on our embassy in Tripoli."






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[mzcool]

Here is the link to an article regarding the testimony of Gregory Hicks, the highest ranking State Dept. member in Libya after Ambassador Stevens was killed.

Mind you in my opinion this guy has nothing to gain but everything to lose by testifying as a whistle blower.

http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2143813



This is about 3/4 through that article:

Before long, embassy workers learned that "the ambassador was in a hospital controlled by Ansar al-Sharia, the group whose Twitter feed said it was leading the attack on the consulate," Hicks said.

Hicks said he received several phone calls about the ambassador saying "you can come get the ambassador, we know where he is," but Hicks was worried about "wading into a trap." Then he said they saw on the same Twitter feed as before that Ansar al-Sharia, an al-Qaeda-linked terrorist group, "was calling on an attack on our embassy in Tripoli."






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Didn't see that before, and that is interesting, but wasn't his cause of death smoke inhalation from the fire in the consulate? The whole hospital situation is likely true, but he was probably dead when he arrived there. I'm not trying to say that what happened in Benghazi wasn't a mess or wasn't completely mishandled by the Obama administration, but this cannot be blamed on Hilary Clinton. As the Secretary of State, she has many factors to consider, and I'm not sure what was going through her mind when her office denied that security request, but this is in no way as much of a scandal as Plamegate, and the starting of the Iraq War under Bush. 4 Americans died, and that's terrible. The rescue operation didnt happen, and it should have happened, but it was a intelligence mishap, a mishap that claimed 4 lives, but not a scandal.

 

[Luthier]

Aha. And other 3 people died because of choking, they are cookies, that friendly libyans offered them, and they ate too fast.
icard:

 

[mzcool]

Aha. And other 3 people died because of choking, they are cookies, that friendly lybians offered them, and they ate too fast.
icard:

No, two died trying to defend the CIA Annex, no one is denying that. The third victim was also an intelligence agent.

 

[trailboss99]

Here is the link to an article regarding the testimony of Gregory Hicks, the highest ranking State Dept. member in Libya after Ambassador Stevens was killed.

Mind you in my opinion this guy has nothing to gain but everything to lose by testifying as a whistle blower.

http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2143813



This is about 3/4 through that article:

Before long, embassy workers learned that "the ambassador was in a hospital controlled by Ansar al-Sharia, the group whose Twitter feed said it was leading the attack on the consulate," Hicks said.

Hicks said he received several phone calls about the ambassador saying "you can come get the ambassador, we know where he is," but Hicks was worried about "wading into a trap." Then he said they saw on the same Twitter feed as before that Ansar al-Sharia, an al-Qaeda-linked terrorist group, "was calling on an attack on our embassy in Tripoli."






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Yes, I need to say that a lot of support was offered from right thinking Libyan people, the ONLY support those caught up in got was from locals. That is sad.

 

[Luthier]

No, two died trying to defend the CIA Annex, no one is denying that. The third victim was also an intelligence agent.

Defend CIA Annex??? What a bullshit...
OK, here's SFA's post:

1. Three urgent requests from the CIA annex for military back-up during the attack on the U.S. Consulate and subsequent attack nearly seven hours later were denied. CIA operators instructed to "stand down" rather than help the ambassador's team.

2. Former Navy SEALs Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty were part of a small team who were at the CIA annex approx 2km from the U.S. Consulate where Ambassador Chris Stevens and his team came under attack. When they heard the shots fired, they radioed to inform their higher-ups to tell them what they were hearing. They were told to "stand down."

3. Approx one hour later, they called again to headquarters and were again told to "stand down."

4. Woods, Doherty and at least two others ignored those orders and made their way to the Consulate, which at that point was on fire, in direct violation of orders to stand down.

5. The 4 Directorate of Operations personnel engaged in a firefight with the AQ aligned force attacking the Embassy annex.

6. The quick reaction force from the CIA annex evacuated those who remained at the Consulate and Sean Smith, who had been killed in the initial attack.

7. Ambassador Stevens could not be found at this time.

8. Around midnight Navy SEALs Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty returned to the CIA complex.

9. They called again for military support and help because they were taking fire at the CIA annex. They were denied.

10. One member of the team was on the roof of the annex manning a heavy machine gun when mortars were fired at the CIA compound.

11.The security officer had a laser designator on the target that was firing and repeatedly requested back-up support from a Spectre gunship.

12. Spectre gunship's were just 480 miles away at Sigonella Air base- the fighting went on for more than 4 more hours which is well within the timeframe needed to get the gunships on station and on target.

13. Two separate Tier One Special operations forces were told to wait, among them CAG (Delta).

14. CIA annex had visual contact and a laser designator on the Libyan mortar team that was targeting the CIA annex. Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty were calling in coordinates of where the Libyan forces were firing from.

15. There were two military surveillance drones redirected to Benghazi shortly after the attack on the Consulate began. They were already in the vicinity. The second surveillance craft was sent to relieve the first drone, perhaps due to fuel issues. Both were sending real time visuals back to US officials in Washington, D.C.

16. Nearly seven hours after the attack on the Consulate began -- a window that represented more than enough time for the U.S. military to send back-up from nearby bases in Europe, Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty were killed by a mortar shell at 4 a.m. Libyan time.

*SIDE NOTE*
Stevens was in Benghazi that day to be present at the opening of an English-language school being started by the Libyan farmer who helped save an American pilot who had been shot down by pro-Qaddafi forces during the initial war to overthrow the regime. That farmer saved the life of the American pilot and the Ambassador wanted to be present to launch the Libyan rescuer's new school.

 

[DoubleWristed]

Rofl, but Bush, but Bush... cmon now I will give you benefit of the doubt that you have more in your tank than that.

Mzcool you are a defender of everything Liberal, you my friend could start you own News network for the Left to rival Fox.

Reread you comments do you see how you soften each fact by coming up with excuses and then you drop the Bush comment.

Sir you have a future in spinning the news! Good Luck with that.

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[Luthier]

He's just a 16 y/old kid.

 

[trailboss99]

Defend CIA Annex??? What a bullshit...
OK, here's SFA's post:

1. Three urgent requests from the CIA annex for military back-up during the attack on the U.S. Consulate and subsequent attack nearly seven hours later were denied. CIA operators instructed to "stand down" rather than help the ambassador's team.

2. Former Navy SEALs Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty were part of a small team who were at the CIA annex approx 2km from the U.S. Consulate where Ambassador Chris Stevens and his team came under attack. When they heard the shots fired, they radioed to inform their higher-ups to tell them what they were hearing. They were told to "stand down."

3. Approx one hour later, they called again to headquarters and were again told to "stand down."

4. Woods, Doherty and at least two others ignored those orders and made their way to the Consulate, which at that point was on fire, in direct violation of orders to stand down.

5. The 4 Directorate of Operations personnel engaged in a firefight with the AQ aligned force attacking the Embassy annex.

6. The quick reaction force from the CIA annex evacuated those who remained at the Consulate and Sean Smith, who had been killed in the initial attack.

7. Ambassador Stevens could not be found at this time.

8. Around midnight Navy SEALs Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty returned to the CIA complex.

9. They called again for military support and help because they were taking fire at the CIA annex. They were denied.

10. One member of the team was on the roof of the annex manning a heavy machine gun when mortars were fired at the CIA compound.

11.The security officer had a laser designator on the target that was firing and repeatedly requested back-up support from a Spectre gunship.

12. Spectre gunship's were just 480 miles away at Sigonella Air base- the fighting went on for more than 4 more hours which is well within the timeframe needed to get the gunships on station and on target.

13. Two separate Tier One Special operations forces were told to wait, among them CAG (Delta).

14. CIA annex had visual contact and a laser designator on the Libyan mortar team that was targeting the CIA annex. Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty were calling in coordinates of where the Libyan forces were firing from.

15. There were two military surveillance drones redirected to Benghazi shortly after the attack on the Consulate began. They were already in the vicinity. The second surveillance craft was sent to relieve the first drone, perhaps due to fuel issues. Both were sending real time visuals back to US officials in Washington, D.C.

16. Nearly seven hours after the attack on the Consulate began -- a window that represented more than enough time for the U.S. military to send back-up from nearby bases in Europe, Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty were killed by a mortar shell at 4 a.m. Libyan time.

*SIDE NOTE*
Stevens was in Benghazi that day to be present at the opening of an English-language school being started by the Libyan farmer who helped save an American pilot who had been shot down by pro-Qaddafi forces during the initial war to overthrow the regime. That farmer saved the life of the American pilot and the Ambassador wanted to be present to launch the Libyan rescuer's new school.

Someone please tell me how these events (and I promise you, this IS how it went down) is in any way excusable?

 

[DoubleWristed]

This awesome that we are able to debate like this. I think it would benefit all of us to take a step back and appreciate each other's points of view. We all come from different backgrounds and bring different experiences to the table. We all have our opinions obviously but it wouldn't kill anyone of us to say, "wow, that guy has a point".

We could all be sheep and find forums that fit our opinions but you would learn nothing except wiseass embellished comebacks to someone you disagree with.

We are fortunate that being here for the common ground of our love of watches gives us the opportunity to debate these topics but at the same time restrains us from being at each others throats.

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[Luthier]

@Col:
It's not excusable, it's a CRIME. But nobody not only will not go to jail, nobody wouldn't even fired. And the then Secretary of State Hillary will, maybe, run for an Office. A person, who should be in jail, could be our next President.

 

[DoubleWristed]

@Col:
It's not excusable, it's a CRIME. But nobody not only will not go to jail, nobody wouldn't even fired. And the then Secretary of State Hillary will, maybe, run for an Office. A person, who should be in jail, could be our next President.

Exactly

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[trailboss99]

@Col:
It's not excusable, it's a CRIME. But nobody not only will not go to jail, nobody wouldn't even fired. And the then Secretary of State Hillary will, maybe, run for an Office. A person, who should be in jail, could be our next President.

Yup it is mate.

Now, you (and all American citizens) have a great advantage here that the rest of us (citizens of the planet outside of the US) do not. He's not just your president but by default he's ours as well. the policies of the US more so than any other western power effect the entire world and it's you guys who can change that, you have the power to vote him out at the next election if that is what you desire.

Having said that TBH on a world scale the current government of the US is very good for the world in general, Obama's policies are sound on a global scale and generally I support them but I can not and will not support what happened in Benghazi. The one failing of any power that be that I can not condone regardless is that of not supporting those who protect them. One MUST support those who are willing to give their all for their country.

 

[mzcool]

He's just a 16 y/old kid.

Please, don't use that on me, I've been following current events for a very long time, my age has nothing to do with my opinion.

 

[Luthier]

Yup it is mate.

Now, you (and all American citizens) have a great advantage here that the rest of us (citizens of the planet outside of the US) do not. He's not just your president but by default he's ours as well. the policies of the US more so than any other western power effect the entire world and it's you guys who can change that, you have the power to vote him out at the next election if that is what you desire.

Having said that TBH on a world scale the current government of the US is very good for the world in general, Obama's policies are sound on a global scale and generally I support them but I can not and will not support what happened in Benghazi. The one failing of any power that be that I can not condone regardless is that of not supporting those who protect them. One MUST support those who are willing to give their all for their country.

Can't say better.

 

[Luthier]

Please, don't use that on me, I've been following current events for a very long time, my age has nothing to do with my opinion.

It has absolutely everything to do with your opinion. At 16 you just don't have life experience, and can't judge events properly, exactly because you don't have life experience, you never served, you never voted, you never participated in political life. Doesn't matter, for how long you follow current events, mate... And don't be upset, with time you'll understand things, that you just can't comprehend now, way better.

 

[tr573]

Yup it is mate.

Now, you (and all American citizens) have a great advantage here that the rest of us (citizens of the planet outside of the US) do not. He's not just your president but by default he's ours as well. the policies of the US more so than any other western power effect the entire world and it's you guys who can change that, you have the power to vote him out at the next election if that is what you desire.

Having said that TBH on a world scale the current government of the US is very good for the world in general, Obama's policies are sound on a global scale and generally I support them but I can not and will not support what happened in Benghazi. The one failing of any power that be that I can not condone regardless is that of not supporting those who protect them. One MUST support those who are willing to give their all for their country.

Honestly, I think there is probably something that was going on there that we will never find out about, just based on the amount of "nothing to see here" going on. I think in their haste to throw some more s--t on the presidents head, that some of the more raucous elements of the GOP have accidentally kicked a nest that they probably immediately wished they had avoided.