16800 build

[APjumbo]

I have started another build
A 16800 matte this time.
It is a bit premature to start posting but I’m too damn excited.

Originally I was planning to use a TC case and swap the dial, add a VS3135. Then this Viet case popped up on M2M so spontaneously changed my plans with having done little research.

A genuine dial would be fantastic but the matte ones from 79-84 are bloody expensive ($2-4k it seems)
MQ seems to make nice dials and maybe I’ll change over to one of those if I ever find hands with cream or pumpkin patina.
For now I went with a Richie / mochacha dial.

I had wanted one of his with brown lume but the one he had in stock had a Zorro S for submariner and I think those rare/odd dials wit the Z were only on the glossy dials not the matte ones. So I opted for an all white dial.

I may try to play with patina in the future but for now I would like to just get the watch together and enjoy it for a bit.




Quick mock up pics so far….




Another member once told me when building a vintage watch to get inspiration pics online of what you want the end result to be like.

The first pic is what I wish I could accomplish, cream or very light patina on lume plots, text still crisp white, open 6/9 date, and an insert that has a gradual fade - darker on the inner to a washed out perimeter.
The second pic is realistically what I will get with the parts I have aquired so far.

 

[APjumbo]

Dials:

1979-1984 was matte dial

1983-1988 was white gold surrounds dial
The 16800 dials (or any from the 3035 movement) May have longer dial feet than the 16610 dials from the 3135.


Dials

MK1- shorter coronet, alignment of the L and coronet are different, hyphen in “Swiss - T” slightly to the right of the 6’ hash mark

MK2 hyphen in “Swiss - T” is centered over 6:00 hash mark

MK2 and MK3 similar but alignment of 1000 looks different as does length of the f in “ft” and = is different, the MK3 = is staggered

MK4- coronet is thicker and fonts for ft and m are different, E in “submariner” is long E

 

[APjumbo]

Specs

Year 1984

crown is 24-7030 (703)not a 704

Tube is 24-703-0

Bezel washer ? 29-337-8

Crystal 29-295-C2

Crystal washer/gasket? 29-295-2

Back gasket 29-325-10
Bracelet - 93150 with 593 endlinks
Thickness 12.9mm

 

[Pinion Minion]

love these kinds of threads- I learn so much.

keep it coming!

 

[APjumbo]

7mm Crowns:

I Hate figuring out crowns and tubes, this part will see a few edits and require a few beers I'm sure.

For starters, I am positive there is a thread here or rwg.cc that has a photo of three 7mm crowns that are incorrect, the centre one is not described correctly. Please feel free to correct me here and I will edit all of this.

Super helpful thread on crowns

Gen crown tube install info

Just got a gen crown and tube set for my LN project. Found this info and thought I should share, as it's gonna save me a ton of work! Thanks goes to OP's on replicacollecter and RWG, it's all theirs, I just relocated the content. Part I A genuine or aftermarket submariner 7.0mm case tube...

forum.replica-watch.info

Edits incoming
The Viet case came with a crown tube, looks like it’s for a 704 crown me thinks.
What is annoying is the case threads fit a 6mm tube, ugh. Does it use a magic 6mm tube thread but uses a 7mm crown?
I think the case thread is 3.0mm X .35mm

I buy a 703 crown off eBay, it arrives and it doesn’t fit at all, grrr

Apparently they sent me a 702 crown. I can see the crimping on the edge, and the threads run all the way to the inside edge of the crown.
So I buy another 703 crown and a tube to go with.
They arrive and they screw together fantastically
But the gen tube doesn’t fit into the Viet case. Grrrrrrr

Viet tube 2.91mm O.D. & 4.92O.D.
Gen tube 3.01mm O.D. & 5.06 O.D.

I think this post explains why my tube doesn't fit

24-7030 tube does not fit a freshly tapped case

Has anyone ever run into a gen 24-7030 Triplock tube that does not have standard threading at the case end (the crown fits fine)? I just finished tapping a case using my standard Rolex case tube tap (for you newbies - I have done this many times), but the gen 7030 tube only screws in 1-2 turns (b...

rwg.cc

So the Viet tube has to go back on, and the new gen 703 crown fits great.
The threads on the inside of the gen crown stop mid way up the inside, and the little dots are close to the coronet. (703)
Pretty sure it is the correct crown for this 1984 build.

I’ll be figuring out and posting more shortly ie. twin lock, triplock , mono thing , yada yada.

Good news is the 702 they sent me will be correct for my next build, a 1982 16660 seadweller, I just need to magically find a tube for a 702, which is weird looking and rare, or find an aftermarket one, maybe WSO has one, his 6mm tubes have worked great. Pretty sure Athaya has one.





Quotes about crowns
Mostly from tripdog

https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/rolex-crowns-how-do-you-tell-which-is-which.133011/


Tripdog
This is wrong - in the pic the crown in the centre is stated as being a 702 - it's not, it's an early 703 crown - a sort of transitional model where crimping was still present - early 703's had fairly obvious crimping, later ones it's barely visible - but it's there.

This is because they were still using the same construction as on the 702, albeit improved, so that the crimped edges were not so visible, the steel jacket was more closely bonded to the brass housing - but the centre crown in the pic is an early 703, the one on the right may be a monobloc 704



Tripdog
6 crowns, all genuine Rolex, all different.

1. 700 crown - heavily flared inner edge, pronounced crimping, threads run up to top of inner sleeve, no dots on face, brass housing, steel jacket.

2. 702 crown - heavily flared inner edge, pronounced crimping, threads run up to top of inner sleeve, 3 dots on face, brass housing, steel jacket.

3. 703 crown - very early example with medium flare on inner edge, quite pronounced crimping, threads run half way up inner sleeve, 3 dots, brass housing, steel jacket.

4. 703 crown - later production, smaller flare on inner edge, crimping is there but less visible, threads run half way up inner sleeve, 3 dots,brass housing, steel jacket.

5. 703 crown - late production, almost no flare on inner edge, crimping is now almost invisible, threads run half way up inner sleeve, 3 dots, brass housing, steel jacket.

6. 704 crown - almost no flare on inner edge, no crimping, threads run half way up inner sleeve, 3 dots, all steel mono block.


Tripdog
They aren't cheap - $200, up to $350 if NOS and gen tubes are almost impossible to find, aftermarket tubes from WSO are $50, so it's reserved for high end builds really . . .


Tripdog
An Athaya 702 crown is slimmer, or you can file down the Cartel crown to make it look more like a gen 702 - I did that on this one:


https://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/327220-Gilt-Trip-(dog)-Shooting

6mm crowns - extra notes (16710)

GEN = 5330 tube, 603 crown

VIET same midcase as the 16710 discussed in this thread. You need a 6020 tube w/ 600 crown (confirmed - it’s what’s on my build). Now there’s a new tube since 600 crowns have been discontinued. The 6330 tube is the replacement for the 6020 tube and you can use 603 (maybe 604) crown with it. I haven’t tried this, but those 6020/600 parts are getting harder to find and $$$.



When a case calls for a 600 crown it uses a 6mm type case tube and the case is threaded 3.0mm X .35mm



When a case calls for a 603 crown it uses a 5.3mm type case tube and the case is threaded 2.5mm X .25mm

 

[APjumbo]

HANDS:
For hands I have some startime 3135 ones handy that I will use, raffles may have been another option.
Old ARF hands have also been recommended in some threads as well as TC obviously.
CWP is another brand I recently learned of but not sure if they are available anymore or if 3135 compatible. (Classic watch repair)

Genuine hands with tritium are just ridiculously expensive if you can find them.
I haven't read of any good method to determine if hands on ebay are tritium or luminova.
If they are gen and look original and are cream or brown then they are tritium and the price for them skyrockets to $800-2000
If they are still white, I think some people use a geiger - counter somehow to measure the tritium.
Some Tritium still will have a light glow, but I think most will not glow.

If anyone else has any info here to add please speak up, it is hard to find info on buying gen tritium hands.

Another point here is that it seems a lot of genuine watches have luminous service hands installed so I don’t think genuine tritium hands are absolutely necessary.
If these startime hands don’t look great I may opt for regular luminous genuine 16610 ones. We will see.

Oh, and I have heard that with most genuine watches, sapphire models usually have lighter patina hands than the dial patina. Acrylic it is more common that the lume matches, but not always. Seems like the bezel pearl is the part to see the most patina (more brown than the dial)

Oh, I had read another interesting post which someone said that dark patina on dials and hands is the result of not being exposed to UV (hidden in a safe for years) and that watches with minimal discoloration have been out in the sun and used. Tripdog commented in the thread that it was a chemical reaction, but didn't agree or disagree about the UV and if it effected the tritium. I would love to know more on this, as it is the opposite to what I had assumed.

Found this thread-

PATINA Tritium Ageing in the Dark - Gen Scans

Today I got a true 'safe-queen'. This 16800 has been in a dry, dark safe for most of its life. I am amazed with the stability and color of the luminous. Luminous decay / patina has to deal with the phosphorous present in the Tritium mix. UV light bleaches the red phosphorous and leaves the lumino...

rwg.cc

Quotes from other posts:

To tell if hands gen look at the position of the lume rectangles



Rafflestime- best for cheap but only ETA sizes
RafflesDials- not so great

Biggest flaw is seconds hand orb is too big.



Clark sucks, have lume too short on hour hand.

Phong , expensive, hour hand lume short, minute hand lume too long?


ETA

1.50x0.90x0.25(0.256)

(More like 1.51x0.91)

3035/3130/3135 hands 95/140/22

28x hands size (ETA) 90/150/25

DG2813 hands 100/150/17

 

[APjumbo]

Inserts:
So my insert isn’t period correct. I had mistakenly assumed through looking at pics online that I need any old flat 4. What I need is a semi flat 4 with sarif and a long leg on the #4
Although as I do more research and I have now ended up with an all white dial, I am thinking a washed out grey / bleached insert would look great on this build

Sort of a look that says it’s been left out in the sun for a long time.
So this may get bleached or maybe I’ll find a cheaper insert to play around with and use this on a future 14060 (16610 case) or 168880




Sapphire models have metal surrounding pearl.

Acrylic models have plastic around pearl not metal


Quote from gen forum
“16800 has semi flat 4 long tail (#4 has a short bottom) sarif insert, pearl is always a darker patina.

Same for the 16660

16610 late 80s had flat 4 insert with short tail on the #4”


Rolex Sub Insert

Old sub
5513, 5512, 1665, 1680
Outside Diameter: 36.55mm
Inside Diameter: 30.3mm

New sub
16808,16800, 16618, 16610
Outside Diameter: 37.65mm
Inside Diameter: 30.7mm


New Style Sub no date
14060,14060M
Outside Diameter: 36.55mm
Inside Diameter: 29.7mm

Sea Dweller
16660
Outside Diameter: 36.65
Inside Diameter: 29.70mm

Random insert pics to give an idea what people are talking about sometimes.




Borrowed from CaC

 

[APjumbo]

Movement:

The vietnam case I have takes a gen 3035. This is great for building a genstein 16800, not so great at building a simple light franken.
Maybe one day if I trim my collection this watch will see a gen 3035, but when weighing the diminishing returns it seems unlikely.
A gen 3035 these days is about 3-4k, and they seems a bit hard to find.
Also, I had read a thread 10 years ago when people were buying these for $1200 that even then they risked buying one with a worn out "something" plate and risked buying one that couldn't be salvedged. That watchmakers might buy three used ones and make two good ones with the parts and sell the dud leftover. That even ten years ago a gen movement was very diminishing returns.
Add on top of that, we now have pretty good clone movements that are compatible with gen dials.


As you can see below, a 3135 and 2824 are very close in stem height and are relatively interchangeable.
Most people opt for using a 16610 submariner case and just swap the dial, throw in a clone 3135, drill out the lug holes and enjoy.
The 16800 case is very close but has a shorter/more shallow rehaut, pretty sure there are slight crownguard differences as well, I just am not that familiar yet. I believe the 16800 also has chamfers on the case lugs.


For the viet 3035 case, the eta2836 has almost the same stem height as the rolex 3035, most people with this case would use a eta2836.
The problem here is that the datewheel on the 2836 does not line up with the gen (or refurbished) dial date window,
This is where most people would use a datewheel overlay (DWO)
I have read that the WSO ones are a bit inconsistant with the numbers being centered. I have read that raffles probably makes the best overlay that anyone can just buy.

I love me a good VS3135.
Let's try to jam one of those in here.
Because of the stem height difference of 0.4mm we will have to do some creative stuff.
The stem might be able to be on a very slight offset, maybe 0.2mm
I will have to use a spacer of maybe 0.2mm somewhere between movement and rehaut to make up the difference.
We went out of our way to get a case with a shallow rehaut, so adding space between the rehaut and dial isn't ideal
We could add 0.2mm space between the movement and dial, but that might create a small gap around the date window, it will also effect the magnification of the cyclops. The cyclops mag might be an easy fix by swapping out the crystal gasket to a more shallow one. With the rehaut already being shallow, adding a more shallow crystal gasket might cause intereference between the hands and the underside of the crystal.

I plan to figure this out shortly when the movement arrives.
I also don't know the difference in hand stack heights between a VS3135 and a gen 3035, if anybody knows if they are the same that would be great info to add.


Stem heights:
Distance between dial plane and stem center

Miyota 9015: 1.530mm

3135 / 2824: 1.8mm

3035 maybe 2.2?

2836: 2.25mm

2813: 2.5mm

8215: 2.570mm


The quote below sums up some of the problems with jamming a 3135 into a case which was designed for a different movement.

"You can't even put a 3135 in a 2836 case because of the stem height difference and the DG2813 sits even LOWER with a GREATER stem height difference. Unless you make up for the difference somehow, like a thicker dial spacer. This would lower the 3135 enough to properly fit the stem through the 2813 tube but it would also cause the date to be grossly overmagnifed because of the increased distance between cyclops and datewheel. And it would leave you still stuck with a crown and CGs that are way lower than gen just like mine. One of the main reasons to choose a 3135 movement rep is so the crown sits at the gen height and the CGs aren't bastardized low. Why would you choose to do that? It would make much more sense to just buy the BP 3135 version, which is still available." - talking about the 16600 seadweller

Important thing I learned about gen movements, some of the datejust movements have a beveled outer edge to accommodate a pan shaped dial. Apparently this won’t work for a flat dial. This is for the older 4 digit movents, not for this build, but worth noting for future builds and something that would be costly mistake.

 

[Swainybob]

Thanks for taking the time! Fascinating.

 

[APjumbo]

Fitting a VS3135 into a 3035 / 2836 case
Interesting thread with a few pics of cramming a 3135 into a 2836 case.
Thanks @HulkyGalore

Lets look at this interesting 16610

Some time ago I saw a cheap 16610LV for sale. After a week it sold and I thought, I should have bought that. I needed a case, love 5 digit subs and could have used it. It even had some bits of the original metal bracelet. Apparently, from mid 2000's. Then recently, the person who had bought it...

forum.replica-watch.info

Let’s see how this is gonna fit






Inner rehaut is 26.95mm
Max dial size (next ledge) 27.45mm



WTF, why does this stem hole look aligned. It shouldn’t be this easy.
I am very suspect right now.




So just looking from a foot away it all looks good. When I look through a loupe, I can see the dial isn’t sitting hard up against the rehaut edge.
What I suspect is that the movement has a stepped ledge on it and the wide part is getting hung up on the machines step in the case.
See drawing above.

This is good in a way because the stem fits and works GREAT.

It’s bad because if someone was blessed with OCD the tiny gap around the dial edge would drive them mad.

Then again it’s good because what drives me more mad than a dial gap (that is hidden by shadow) is a date that is sunken.
If I fix the dial gap, I’d have to use a spacer between dial and movement and it would create date window gap and lower the hands 0.2mm

I think I’m just going to enjoy as is.




If I ever decide to fix the dial gap I would probably have to file/sand down this outer ledge to make the movement more narrow.
Then the assembly would be held in place between dial edge and movement screws.



Movement screws loom like they will fit fine.



They do!
Screws for great
Do t forget that on these 3135 movements the screws get screwed down all the way, movement drops in, then the screws are unscrewed to create tension.

Caseback test fitted
Rotor sounds all spinny!
Good fit!
S

 

[APjumbo]

Bezels and retaining rings

-Future placeholder

 

[APjumbo]

Crystals and crystal gaskets
-Future placeholder

 

[APjumbo]

Bracelets and infuriating endlinks

-future placeholder

 

[HulkyGalore]

This is a really informative and well written thread - thank you!!!! Particularly interesting as I try to understand the fine details for the 16610 that you referenced above (the one designed for 2836 which now has a 3135). The level of detail you have gone to for various components shows how the relevant things can by studied, understood and applied properly- cheers!!

 

[APjumbo]

This is a really informative and well written thread - thank you!!!! Particularly interesting as I try to understand the fine details for the 16610 that you referenced above (the one designed for 2836 which now has a 3135). The level of detail you have gone to for various components shows how the relevant things can by studied, understood and applied properly- cheers!!

I’m just glad I’m not the only one crazy enough to try fitting a 3135 into a 2836 case. I had read a few threads saying it wasn’t possible.
I didn’t know if it was the older SA or SH 3135 they were using or the internal case design.
Even if I get it to fit I may run into movement mounting feet problems or other issues.

 

[manodeoro]

WOW ... I love your thread so much questions to ask and o much lessons to learn ...
It brings me back to the old days when I was building a transitional 16800 COMEX for my son for his 33th birthday

 

[APjumbo]

@manodeoro
You built that? It looks fantastic.

The rehaut looks proper, it must be a gen, startime, or Viet case, correct?

Why have I never seen a Rolex box like that, only crappy looking green ones. Is it a gen box?

 

[manodeoro]

@manodeoro
You built that? It looks fantastic.

The rehaut looks proper, it must be a gen, startime, or Viet case, correct?

Why have I never seen a Rolex box like that, only crappy looking green ones. Is it a gen box?

Watch, calendar, box ... everything is 100% Rep and homemade
That was my first complete build and I spent days working on it ... nothing but good memories
BTW ... the reason you've never seen a Rolex box like that is because it's the only one available

 

[McDuck888]

Such a gorgeous informative thread. Thank you so much for sharing !

 

[McDuck888]

WOW ... I love your thread so much questions to ask and o much lessons to learn ...
It brings me back to the old days when I was building a transitional 16800 COMEX for my son for his 33th birthday

WOW!