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Opinions Please, TC's new cg's
- Thread starter mitchbaria
- Start date
I agree R,,,,it really goes to the heart of what's been happening in the Rolex section and all the miscommunications between the senior members that have stayed with Rolex reps through all of noob experts that really have no clue of what they're looking at but continue to post bad info as facts....I believe there's never been more of a need for a Rolex team with a senior member like rsh or KBH at the wheel to correct some of the erroneous and outrages claims that circle around in there....and post good reviews on these watches as they're released....even Luthier, while very outspoken he still has forgotten more about Rolex then most noobs could ever hope to learn...
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I didn't mention Bonesey because I don't see many post from him lately but he's the mod in the section and has contributed a crazy amount of info..... maybe Bonesey as the Team Captain, if he has the time? If not one of the other guys that I've mentioned or other members could make suggestions for who may would like to head up a Team,,,, but it's important because there desperately needs to be a definitive voice in this section to help all of us with deciding what is acceptable and what is not so good per the gen equivalent.....sub-c has been a disaster and now we're seeing new members even myself buying watches for the wrong reasons.... if you put the letters TC on a Timex noobs would pay a thousand bucks for it..... that's just not good,,, and that's not TC's fault.... it's our faults for not reviewing these watches properly,,,,, same thing with sub-c v2 way to many were sold before we got a consensus that the watch had some problems....I would like to see a few senior members step up and start making their voices heard..... I'm sure the guys in CRM can help with designing some signatures for several guys that will work together for the betterment of all of us Rolex lovers....
Mitch,
I dont completely disagree with what you're saying but forming a group may not be needed. TC has been very open with his designs and development of his watches, maybe just pm him and let him know the concerns? Maybe we should (as a forum) ask for more participation from the TD's as they develop products.
I am a member of RG but dont participate much there but Angus has solicited members feedback regarding the Blackbay. I just think we need more of that here. Just my thoughts.
I dont completely disagree with what you're saying but forming a group may not be needed. TC has been very open with his designs and development of his watches, maybe just pm him and let him know the concerns? Maybe we should (as a forum) ask for more participation from the TD's as they develop products.
I am a member of RG but dont participate much there but Angus has solicited members feedback regarding the Blackbay. I just think we need more of that here. Just my thoughts.
Well SJ, TC was in this thread when I posted pics of the really bad case and so far hasn't commented.... I think the problem with this particular watch at least for me was just a lack of disclosure when the cases were changed,,,, but it's not TC or Burt's fault that I bought a watch without first looking it over well,,,, that was my fault and as such I was disappointed with the watch and myself , but I sold the watch to a member that is very happy with it.... I was just expecting it to be what it's always been and that wasn't the case,,,,, but this other watch that is truly a flawed watch,,, that's different entirely.....That watch suggest something we've not seen from TC's parts yet, a truly defective part,,,,, That watch and I think the swap to the new cases deserves to be addressed....... but as I said we've seen these roll outs of other watches and big hype and build up by people that really don't know what they're looking at...... it just seems that Ale and his team really have a good thing going in the Pam section and the dealers respect and seek their approval,,,, it just makes for better watches,,,,,and I'd like to see that happen in the Rolex section as well....
That's a bit harsh. True, you bear some responsibility... but it's not entirely your fault...!
BTW as a noob I'd love to learn *EXACTLY* what you guys are talking about. Is it the center alignment of the crown on the crown guards? The radius of the drill for the crown on the crown guards? the shape? if so, where to focus? (Inner, outer, tip) Thanks
I was confident this thread would be carefully guided by expert members and would be educational for new members. But I am surprised to see the direction it took and the information provided. This really means that members should get a better idea on what a gen 16610 Sub is like and know/learn the difference between a defect VS. a variance.
As you all know my goal has been the pursue of a perfect Sub. What it means for me is to go after something as close to a gen Rolex Sub as possible within the limited resource that I have.
Before we move on to anything. Members old and new please get the name right. There is no such thing as 16610LN at least not in the gen world. Rolex never released such model. The LN (Lunnette Noire, Black Frame in English) designation is only used when the super cased 116610 line is released.
Now let me define the difference between an aesthetic defect vs a variance.
An aesthetic defect would be something like a bad lume job on one of the indice, a badly reproduced pearl, a chip on the insert or a deep scratch on the casing or bracelet. It is basically a list of things you wouldn't expect to see when you buy a brand new $8k Rolex.
A variance on the other hand is differences that you see amongst gen pieces such as the tightness of the rotating bezels, tightness of the folding claps, dial fonts and spacing from different batch of print job, or today's topic difference shape or uneven crown guards.
Let's face it, even with modern day technology when you run a batch on a production line there is bound to be variances between the units. I can say this with confidence having handled my fair share of gen Subs in the recent couple of years. If you line up 10 gen 16610 Sub from the same serial year, with a trained eyes and some guidance, you will be able to point out the difference between each individual unit.
Take a look at the picture below of two of the Rolex which I currently have in possession. When you look at these two units closely, you can see the variance which exists.
Without mentioning their authenticity members would have probably began their critical analysis.
Uneven crown guards on mid case 1. It's a gen M serial mid case.
Uneven crown guards on mid case 2. It's a gen V serial mid case.
I don't see what is wrong when putting the gen V next to a TC Sub I just done. Heck! Even gen V series mid case has uneven finish on the case lug side lines.
Now let's put gen M next to TC, I still don't see anything wrong. Sturddy and pointy? That's the gen mid case you're looking at.
So let's be realistic here. When a company like Rolex would not produce a batch of 100% identical units when put on a mass production scale, what are we as rep owners really asking the Chinese makers at the price less than 1/10th of the original?
You probably would wonder then how come you never hear gen owners mentioning about these variances? It has but just not often. Imagine yourself having just spent 8K or more at an AD for your brand spanking new Sub, would you feel the need to scrutinize each and every detail of this baby as how you would when they receive a new TC or BK sub? You'd probably just look at it every 20 seconds and enjoy it. I know because I did.
Mitch mentioned that changes should be highlighted to members. I agree. Changes and defects should be pointed out point blank so members understand what they are getting. And that's the way this forum should operate. As a non profit supporting member of this community I have provided all these different versions for parts as well as complete units through out the year. However, it is also members' responsibilities to do their own studies and research to understand a change due to year make, a defect, and a variance. Because what one member's "understanding" of a defect is might just be a mere variance to the true sub experts and master watchmakers like BK himself who has seen and handled a crap load of both gen and rep subs.
End of the day, scrutinizing over details is fine; however, know the difference between a defect and variance. Don't blindly follow. Do not monkey see monkey do. Do not just look at 1 nicely photoed picture of a gen Rolex, but compare 10, 20, or even 30 pieces of gen Subs to really know your Subs.
I've just done a dozen Caddell Subs and V5 Subs. Variances of crown guards? YES, there are. Uneven crown guards? YES, there are. Defects, I don't see any. And what the heck are the old case and new case? How come I don't know about it?
10/22/13
TC
San Francisco
As you all know my goal has been the pursue of a perfect Sub. What it means for me is to go after something as close to a gen Rolex Sub as possible within the limited resource that I have.
Before we move on to anything. Members old and new please get the name right. There is no such thing as 16610LN at least not in the gen world. Rolex never released such model. The LN (Lunnette Noire, Black Frame in English) designation is only used when the super cased 116610 line is released.
Now let me define the difference between an aesthetic defect vs a variance.
An aesthetic defect would be something like a bad lume job on one of the indice, a badly reproduced pearl, a chip on the insert or a deep scratch on the casing or bracelet. It is basically a list of things you wouldn't expect to see when you buy a brand new $8k Rolex.
A variance on the other hand is differences that you see amongst gen pieces such as the tightness of the rotating bezels, tightness of the folding claps, dial fonts and spacing from different batch of print job, or today's topic difference shape or uneven crown guards.
Let's face it, even with modern day technology when you run a batch on a production line there is bound to be variances between the units. I can say this with confidence having handled my fair share of gen Subs in the recent couple of years. If you line up 10 gen 16610 Sub from the same serial year, with a trained eyes and some guidance, you will be able to point out the difference between each individual unit.
Take a look at the picture below of two of the Rolex which I currently have in possession. When you look at these two units closely, you can see the variance which exists.
Without mentioning their authenticity members would have probably began their critical analysis.
Uneven crown guards on mid case 1. It's a gen M serial mid case.
Uneven crown guards on mid case 2. It's a gen V serial mid case.
I don't see what is wrong when putting the gen V next to a TC Sub I just done. Heck! Even gen V series mid case has uneven finish on the case lug side lines.
Now let's put gen M next to TC, I still don't see anything wrong. Sturddy and pointy? That's the gen mid case you're looking at.
So let's be realistic here. When a company like Rolex would not produce a batch of 100% identical units when put on a mass production scale, what are we as rep owners really asking the Chinese makers at the price less than 1/10th of the original?
You probably would wonder then how come you never hear gen owners mentioning about these variances? It has but just not often. Imagine yourself having just spent 8K or more at an AD for your brand spanking new Sub, would you feel the need to scrutinize each and every detail of this baby as how you would when they receive a new TC or BK sub? You'd probably just look at it every 20 seconds and enjoy it. I know because I did.
Mitch mentioned that changes should be highlighted to members. I agree. Changes and defects should be pointed out point blank so members understand what they are getting. And that's the way this forum should operate. As a non profit supporting member of this community I have provided all these different versions for parts as well as complete units through out the year. However, it is also members' responsibilities to do their own studies and research to understand a change due to year make, a defect, and a variance. Because what one member's "understanding" of a defect is might just be a mere variance to the true sub experts and master watchmakers like BK himself who has seen and handled a crap load of both gen and rep subs.
End of the day, scrutinizing over details is fine; however, know the difference between a defect and variance. Don't blindly follow. Do not monkey see monkey do. Do not just look at 1 nicely photoed picture of a gen Rolex, but compare 10, 20, or even 30 pieces of gen Subs to really know your Subs.
I've just done a dozen Caddell Subs and V5 Subs. Variances of crown guards? YES, there are. Uneven crown guards? YES, there are. Defects, I don't see any. And what the heck are the old case and new case? How come I don't know about it?
10/22/13
TC
San Francisco
So, TC...
Do you consider the CG:s posted earlier in this thread an aestethic defect or a variance?
I feel I need to ask, because while I'm new in this game and could probably not tell a $125 rep case from a gen unless side by side I'm currently waiting on a watch from you, and that one was just too bad imho.
Do you consider the CG:s posted earlier in this thread an aestethic defect or a variance?
I feel I need to ask, because while I'm new in this game and could probably not tell a $125 rep case from a gen unless side by side I'm currently waiting on a watch from you, and that one was just too bad imho.
Some pics rudy40 posted have TC dials, hands, even my bracelets. Looks to me a TC 93250 v2 or v3. But the mid case I'm not sure. One of them have very long CGs I think that's one of the factory direct M-series case or the legendary WM9 case. Heck that's not a TC V-series 16610 mid case for sure. The other with a crooked side CG looks like failed rework on polishing job. I'm not a modder, I don't do rework.
I pass TC parts to any member who is into this hobby. Use my found parts to upgrade your old watches, I'm totally fine with that and I even feel proud about it. I'm in this hobby because it is fun. Pointing me out and demand extra service like QC pics; talking to me like I'm a dealer doing this for living, i mentioned that in "Email TC" - I loathe that! If one have a mind set like that, it's better to turn to the Chinese. Don't come to me.
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I pass TC parts to any member who is into this hobby. Use my found parts to upgrade your old watches, I'm totally fine with that and I even feel proud about it. I'm in this hobby because it is fun. Pointing me out and demand extra service like QC pics; talking to me like I'm a dealer doing this for living, i mentioned that in "Email TC" - I loathe that! If one have a mind set like that, it's better to turn to the Chinese. Don't come to me.
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I read the whole discussion thread again, that crooked CG mid case is a MBK mid case. What a relieve.
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Well done TC! You do state in your instructions that you're just doing this as a hobby. To think that TC is just doing this as a hobby and nailing it and then criticizing his product, which seems to be the only out there that is this accurate, is ridiculous. If you don't like his crown guards, mod them or pay for someone to mod them. If they're too difficult to mod, start your journey to the best sub available like Bonesy, rolexaddict or any other of those awesome modders.
I think too many people are getting spoiled at the quality of some of these reps and forgetting where these reps came from. If you wanted something close to a gen and not pay the cash, it's not going to happen. I have a gen explorer II and there are a couple variations from the factory that I just don't care about. The lec lines up with the 7 o'clock and not the 6. I've seen some GMT's with overspray on the 24 hr hand. It happens.
We appreciate your work TC, modders, moderators! You're doing a great thing for the rep nation even if some of these noobs don't get it. Have patience with them to mature in this trade.
I think too many people are getting spoiled at the quality of some of these reps and forgetting where these reps came from. If you wanted something close to a gen and not pay the cash, it's not going to happen. I have a gen explorer II and there are a couple variations from the factory that I just don't care about. The lec lines up with the 7 o'clock and not the 6. I've seen some GMT's with overspray on the 24 hr hand. It happens.
We appreciate your work TC, modders, moderators! You're doing a great thing for the rep nation even if some of these noobs don't get it. Have patience with them to mature in this trade.
Thanks TC for for taking the time to post here in this thread.this goes a long way in helping clear up some of the confusion particularly for new members such as my self.Purchasing one of your creations is both an exciting and expensive time ( for most of us!).I think the debate going on here is a healthy thing and only ads to overall experience we come here for.
Mike
:cheers:
Mike
:cheers: