ZF AP 15500

[ettorefranco]

Your collection is very nice! yep, it is difficult to understand the difference.
With my first pic I wanted to emphasize the difference of the materials, this second one is more natural.
However, in your opinion, as a gen RO owner, is it acceptable to buy a ZF AP 15500 and appreciate it? I'm tempted to buy one but I wouldn't want to keep it in the drawer afterwards.
Your suggestion is Wellcome

 

[ettorefranco]

Oh, that looks pretty obvious on your RO.
The modern ones have the screws almost the same tone as the steel.

Are you able to see the difference on mine above?


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8 and 10 screws look gold

 

[legend]

Your collection is very nice! yep, it is difficult to understand the difference.
With my first pic I wanted to emphasize the difference of the materials, this second one is more natural.
However, in your opinion, as a gen RO owner, is it acceptable to buy a ZF AP 15500 and appreciate it? I'm tempted to buy one but I wouldn't want to keep it in the drawer afterwards.
Your suggestion is Wellcome

You know I actually went to have a look at my watches and place them next to a rep I am working on, to discern the screw color difference but I still could not lol.
Still, you see what you see and I think I just do not have the same eyes. It is interesting to learn from different people each time, thank you ettorefranco!
Love your RO too, may I know which model that is please? Looks clean and beautiful.

 

[ettorefranco]

You know I actually went to have a look at my watches and place them next to a rep I am working on, to discern the screw color difference but I still could not lol.
Still, you see what you see and I think I just do not have the same eyes. It is interesting to learn from different people each time, thank you ettorefranco!
Love your RO too, may I know which model that is please? Looks clean and beautiful.

It's a vintage Day Date ref 25572. I bought it at least 25 years ago :cry2:and yes, it is in very good conditions. But If you want to know more, please open this link: https://www.watchcollectinglifestyl...-owl-and-one-of-the-most-beautiful-royal-oaks

 

[daracus]

I believe the reason for the screws 'yellowing' is the fact that either the white gold screws were not rhodium plated (which renders the white gold looking yellowish by nature as it is primarily yellow gold mixed with 'white' metals like palladium), or that the rhodium plating has worn off over the years.

A secondhand Rolex dealer I spoke with told me that for older white gold Rolex models (pre-2000s), the white gold areas will 'yellow' over time, but will not for modern Rolex models. Not sure as to the reason why, but the same may hold true for AP, as the methods/materials that different watchmakers use in a similar era will usually be the same. Hence while screws on older royal oaks may yellow, they might not on modern royal oaks.

Interesting to note is that for the AP ROO, the screws are not white gold but actually stainless steel. White gold would simply not suffice for the purposes of the ROO with regard to water resistance etc.

 

[teaston]

I believe the reason for the screws 'yellowing' is the fact that either the white gold screws were not rhodium plated (which renders the white gold looking yellowish by nature as it is primarily yellow gold mixed with 'white' metals like palladium), or that the rhodium plating has worn off over the years.

A secondhand Rolex dealer I spoke with told me that for older white gold Rolex models (pre-2000s), the white gold areas will 'yellow' over time, but will not for modern Rolex models. Not sure as to the reason why, but the same may hold true for AP, as the methods/materials that different watchmakers use in a similar era will usually be the same. Hence while screws on older royal oaks may yellow, they might not on modern royal oaks.

Interesting to note is that for the AP ROO, the screws are not white gold but actually stainless steel. White gold would simply not suffice for the purposes of the ROO with regard to water resistance etc.

There’s actually two different types.

Traditionally white gold is yellow gold with a rhodium plating to make it look white, and the plating wears off over time and needs to be replated.

Now there is white gold available which is yellow gold mixed with palladium (part of the platinum family) which will never turn yellow.

Maybe AP have changed from using the former to the latter at some point, which may also be the reason for the sunken bezel screws on older models, as a way of protecting them from having the rhodium plating polished off. Apparently a lot of newer models have flush bezel screws.

 

[ettorefranco]

There’s actually two different types.

Traditionally white gold is yellow gold with a rhodium plating to make it look white, and the plating wears off over time and needs to be replated.

Now there is white gold available which is yellow gold mixed with palladium (part of the platinum family) which will never turn yellow.

Maybe AP have changed from using the former to the latter at some point, which may also be the reason for the sunken bezel screws on older models, as a way of protecting them from having the rhodium plating polished off. Apparently a lot of newer models have flush bezel screws.

What you say and what Dacarus says is really interesting and in all probability it is true that white gold (all versions) tends to turn yellow with the passage of time. However, it's certain that AP's choice to use some white gold inserts in the manufacture of the ROs is to make the watch even more precious.
The play of light reflections for the difference of materials is a feature that is appreciated even with new watches and should not be missing in a quality rep.
As Legend says, each of us sees what he sees but, I think, an expert eye also sees what is and what is not.

 

[teaston]

What you say and what Dacarus says is really interesting and in all probability it is true that white gold (all versions) tends to turn yellow with the passage of time. However, it's certain that AP's choice to use some white gold inserts in the manufacture of the ROs is to make the watch even more precious.
The play of light reflections for the difference of materials is a feature that is appreciated even with new watches and should not be missing in a quality rep.
As Legend says, each of us sees what he sees but, I think, an expert eye also sees what is and what is not.

Oh yes without doubt white gold has a more luxurious lustre than polished stainless steel. Difficult to see with the naked eye on the tiny RO bezel screws though.

 

[ettorefranco]

Oh yes without doubt white gold has a more luxurious lustre than polished stainless steel. Difficult to see with the naked eye on the tiny RO bezel screws though.

Sorry but I don't agree with your last words. Try to wear a gen RO on your wrist, put yourself in the sunlight and start swirling it, you will see exactly all the "nuances" I'm talking about. Seeing those warm white reflections on the bezel and in the dial (clock hands, AP logo, barlines of hours) are probably the thing I love most in the RO, as well as transferring that feeling of preciousness to me.
But surely I am a perfectionist fanatic and probably don't make text

 

[legend]

Sorry but I don't agree with your last words. Try to wear a gen RO on your wrist, put yourself in the sunlight and start swirling it, you will see exactly all the "nuances" I'm talking about. Seeing those warm white reflections on the bezel and in the dial (clock hands, AP logo, barlines of hours) are probably the thing I love most in the RO, as well as transferring that feeling of preciousness to me.
But surely I am a perfectionist fanatic and probably don't make text

The eye sees what the eye sees!

I personally cannot immediately tell the difference between white gold and steel but I believe you when you say you can.
It’s the same with me when it comes to hands and datewheels and even movements. A lot of guys don’t care about them when it comes to AP franken builds but I see the differences and think they are completely wrong.

We see different flaws and we choose what we can accept or cannot. And I think it’s good to share these points of views so that others can learn from these observations. I never cared about the bezel screw finish and color till you posted about it. Thank you for bringing that to the table.


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[ettorefranco]

The eye sees what the eye sees!

I personally cannot immediately tell the difference between white gold and steel but I believe you when you say you can.
It’s the same with me when it comes to hands and datewheels and even movements. A lot of guys don’t care about them when it comes to AP franken builds but I see the differences and think they are completely wrong.

We see different flaws and we choose what we can accept or cannot. And I think it’s good to share these points of views so that others can learn from these observations. I never cared about the bezel screw finish and color till you posted about it. Thank you for bringing that to the table.


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Thanks Legend for your words and I'm happy if I modestly enriched the table with my comments.
Looking at the pics of the ZF AP 15500, I'm amazed by the degree of perfection achieved in a rep and I find it is a real shame that there has been no attention to this aspect. Browsing on eBay I have seen sellers who sell only one of these screws for over 200 euro but for ZF factory it should be not very expensive to correct this "carelessness". Rep lovers, I'm sure, would be thrilled

 

[Swiss_goupil]

Thanks Legend for your words and I'm happy if I modestly enriched the table with my comments.
Looking at the pics of the ZF AP 15500, I'm amazed by the degree of perfection achieved in a rep and I find it is a real shame that there has been no attention to this aspect. Browsing on eBay I have seen sellers who sell only one of these screws for over 200 euro but for ZF factory it should be not very expensive to correct this "carelessness". Rep lovers, I'm sure, would be thrilled

Only less than 1% of rep buyers will care about white gold screws unfortunately. People present on this forum and having the willingness to invest time in this hobby are the minority. The rest just want a cheap AP they can wear and feel like if they were the company boss.

Some modders here will happily plate screws if this is your wish. And if should be less expensive compare to buying a set of original ones (200€ for a screw? Lol)


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[legend]

Only less than 1% of rep buyers will care about white gold screws unfortunately. People present on this forum and having the willingness to invest time in this hobby are the minority. The rest just want a cheap AP they can wear and feel like if they were the company boss.

Some modders here will happily plate screws if this is your wish. And if should be less expensive compare to buying a set of original ones (200€ for a screw? Lol)


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Mostly true.

We have the meticulous franken owners on one end and on the other, guys who are happy wearing the stock reps with all the tells. And of course the large space in the middle where majority of the community play in.

At the end of the day this is just a hobby we indulge at different levels. I have seen a few frankens which look like cheap parodies and on the other hand, beautifully crafted frankens and very well modded reps which look much more convincing than what they actually are, and learnt that it’s not always about the amount and time spent on the watch which determines the results but rather the careful selection of the base watch, and then being aware of the flaws and addressing them judiciously through a skillful modder.

Our tastes and inclinations all vary just like our attention to specific details. It’s how we can learn from one another as a community.


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[ettorefranco]

Only less than 1% of rep buyers will care about white gold screws unfortunately. People present on this forum and having the willingness to invest time in this hobby are the minority. The rest just want a cheap AP they can wear and feel like if they were the company boss.

Some modders here will happily plate screws if this is your wish. And if should be less expensive compare to buying a set of original ones (200€ for a screw? Lol)


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Yes, I agree with you, a lot of people are satisfied with a cheap 80/100 euro rep, but if I pay almost 600 euro I demand almost absolute loyalty.
Some friends of mine and I also wear nice rep daily (Rolex especially) for security reasons while owning the originals. These people know what they are wearing and perceive the slightest differences.
I'm not an expert in modding but I think that the tickness generated by a good plating (25 micron per side of the screw) would not allow to enter its seat. Then the dial, clock hands, back screws should be modified...
These problems would be more easily solved by a factory.

 

[Sonofalich]

Yes, I agree with you, a lot of people are satisfied with a cheap 80/100 euro rep, but if I pay almost 600 euro I demand almost absolute loyalty.
Some friends of mine and I also wear nice rep daily (Rolex especially) for security reasons while owning the originals. These people know what they are wearing and perceive the slightest differences.
I'm not an expert in modding but I think that the tickness generated by a good plating (25 micron per side of the screw) would not allow to enter its seat. Then the dial, clock hands, back screws should be modified...
These problems would be more easily solved by a factory.

You are 100% the strangest person I've read on this forum so far.

 

[Jurgenk]

Yes, I agree with you, a lot of people are satisfied with a cheap 80/100 euro rep, but if I pay almost 600 euro I demand almost absolute loyalty.
Some friends of mine and I also wear nice rep daily (Rolex especially) for security reasons while owning the originals. These people know what they are wearing and perceive the slightest differences.
I'm not an expert in modding but I think that the tickness generated by a good plating (25 micron per side of the screw) would not allow to enter its seat. Then the dial, clock hands, back screws should be modified...
These problems would be more easily solved by a factory.

Good plating does affect tolerances... I’ve seen plots and screws that don’t fit easily into their positions after plating. It’s actually reassuring. So in the end you compromise to get a good thickness of plating without having to change anything on the case to accommodate.

 

[ettorefranco]

You are 100% the strangest person I've read on this forum so far.

I don't know why you think this but I'm proud of it. Thanks!

 

[Amaiel]

I'm not an expert in modding but I think that the tickness generated by a good plating (25 micron per side of the screw) would not allow to enter its seat. Then the dial, clock hands, back screws should be modified...
.

Oh guys, I love this game. An interesting, educated, technical quarantine discussion. By the way, just to add my very very little contribution, I would say that it is possible to have a very good rhodium plate at 10 micron. The most important is the quality and the polishing especially before the plating. But not so difficult or expensive if you can make 100 pc

 

[ettorefranco]

Oh guys, I love this game. An interesting, educated, technical quarantine discussion. By the way, just to add my very very little contribution, I would say that it is possible to have a very good rhodium plate at 10 micron. The most important is the quality and the polishing especially before the plating. But not so difficult or expensive if you can make 100 pc

True, our discussions are becoming technically complicated, perhaps it is the effect of this long f......g lockdown that is setting our brains on fire

However I believe what you say, word by word

 

[RonP]

You are 100% the strangest person I've read on this forum so far.

It's Italian passion and romanticism!