ZF AP 15500 - SA4302 - Keeps stopping after 55 hours

[raytron]

Hello community,

every since I bought my watch from a named trusted dealer I have issues with the movement. Can you help me to pinpoint the issue. How can it be fixed?

Problems

• Movement stops after approx. 55 hours
• It stops regardles of any movement and wearing
• I always have to manual wind the watch every 2 days to prevent stopping
• If I wear the watch during work out the run time increases to maybe 60 hours
• The movement doesnt seemt to get enough power from the rotor OR it is lost somerwhere else
• The rotor however delivers power, otherwise run time would not be prolonged while work out

Tests

• After some testing I noticed that the rotation (amplitude) gets signifcantly weaker by the day
• hence the movement slows down, resulting in slower running movement
• after manually winding the watch runs better but amplitude is still too low (240 deg)

Please see attached the images
Test comparison of a 48 hours after manual winding vs. right after manual winding

HMwrhp.png hosted at ClickPix.org

Image HMwrhp.png hosted in ClickPix.org

clickpix.org

Test 48 hours after last manual winding

HMw6Rb.png hosted at ClickPix.org

Image HMw6Rb.png hosted in ClickPix.org

clickpix.org

Test results in numbers

HMwtn5.png hosted at ClickPix.org

Image HMwtn5.png hosted in ClickPix.org

clickpix.org

I have also made some videos of the balance wheel
Balance Wheel

Escapement

Second hand

I appreciate any help, any suggestions, and information
Thanks in advance

 

[mclarendude]

EDITED:

AP 15500/15510/15720 4302 movement comparison pictures

Hola amigos~ Today we have our beautiful SH4302 movement comparison post here. We’ve been busy for quite a while, it’s time to take a break. I will make a voting post about the most wanted watch comparison. Please give us some advises. This SH4302 movement is used by many factories, such as...

forum.replica-watch.info

Per CTime, 70hrs should be the power reserve.

But, they also state that the rotor is not heavy enough for the generation of power.

60 hours is still good enough for a replica watch.

Like all the other movements with longer power reserve, 4302 will also have a bigger daily rating difference when you wind to the top. As long as it is stable, it can count as a good movement, isn’t it?

 

[raytron]

Power reserve is not the issue. The problem is, as stated, that the movement stops. Regardless what I do with the watch. I can keep spinning and the watch will stop.

So I always have to manually wind the watch. Every 2 days I must wind it by hand to prevent it from stopping. Is that the expected behavior?

 

[HootschiGootschi]

I‘m not sure what exactly you looking for,
so please give me a heads up if I go in the wrong direction.

Basically what you saying & seeing is:
- when you manually wind the watch, then it is running for max. 55hours.
- and if you wear it after man winding it doesn’t extend the runtime (which you expected from an automatic)

is that what you say?

If the movement of the rotor doesn’t add any power to the mainspring,
I think there is a problem with the automatic winding part.
(it’s a kind of clutch)

 

[raytron]

Thanks. Yes. Usually when I keep wearing my other watches, I never have to manually wind the movement.

Because due to my regular movement of my wrist, the power reserve will be charged.

With my current watch, the movement will stop unless I manually wind it.

And even if I wind it manually. It will lose all of its power after 55 hours.

Is there a way to find out if the clutch is working or not? Could it also be something else?

 

[pam63C]

Thanks. Yes. Usually when I keep wearing my other watches, I never have to manually wind the movement.

Because due to my regular movement of my wrist, the power reserve will be charged.

With my current watch, the movement will stop unless I manually wind it.

And even if I wind it manually. It will lose all of its power after 55 hours.

Is there a way to find out if the clutch is working or not? Could it also be something else?

Can you test it fully wound and put on a winder ? How long can it last before it stops ?

This is to remove any doubt on whether is your activity level too low or the auto-winding is faulty.

 

[raytron]

@pam63C : can you help me a little. I am not sure if I know what a winder is.

 

[mclarendude]

Is there a way to find out if the clutch is working or not? Could it also be something else?

When you manually wind the watch, does the rotor move even if just a tiny bit? Normally, it looks/feels like a disengaging motion and the rotor will spin somewhat freely.

If it does, it means the automatic works should be working fine.

 

[mclarendude]

@pam63C : can you help me a little. I am not sure if I know what a winder is.

You put the watch in and it spins it, simulating your wrist movements to charge it.

 

[HootschiGootschi]

Thanks. Yes. Usually when I keep wearing my other watches, I never have to manually wind the movement.

Because due to my regular movement of my wrist, the power reserve will be charged.

With my current watch, the movement will stop unless I manually wind it.

And even if I wind it manually. It will lose all of its power after 55 hours.

Is there a way to find out if the clutch is working or not? Could it also be something else?

Without offense,
it’s not possible to remotely diagnose completely, what could cause the behavior you described.

May I ask you how you think it may help you to fix it, if there is an issue with one part of the Autowind or another?

From your questions I must assume that you aren’t a watchsmith and therefore probably not capable of a repair (even if someone point out the exact malfunction)

The best help for you, my Friend, would be to bring your beauty to a watchsmith and give him some time to diagnose/ repair.

 

[raytron]

I would try to repair it myself. There is no watchsmith taking in reps. And sending it in does not make much sense for me as I am not sure who to trust.

As mentioned the trusted dealer sold it like that. The QC images showed something on the time graph but he said that it is not to worry about.

I would learn fixing a watch. But need to know where to look.

And without offense to you. Your comment is not helpful at all. Because one can always narrow down an issue or exclude certain aspects.

Can it be the oil? Is it the mainspring? If it is the gear what would be the signs?

I am raising this question to this community to find help. If the first comment is always “bring it to a watchmaker noob” then I must say the comment is not helpful and you could safe us both some time by just not responding

 

[raytron]

You put the watch in and it spins it, simulating your wrist movements to charge it.

Thanks for the comment. I don’t have that here. I have tried to wind it a couple times till max and left it lying until it stopped. It usually stopped after about 30 hours

 

[mclarendude]

I would learn fixing a watch. But need to know where to look.

Mark Lovick on Youtube can teach you.

Can it be the oil? Is it the mainspring? If it is the gear what would be the signs?

As much information you gave, the issue you are having could be all of the above.

Too much oil could be causing friction on the pivots or wheels, slowing down the movement or making the automatic works slip.

The mainspring could possibly be it over oiled, but I seriously doubt that.

You're asking us to answer thing without anyone but you having the watch. How do we know? We're just shooting in the dark for you.

I am raising this question to this community to find help. If the first comment is always “bring it to a watchmaker noob” then I must say the comment is not helpful and you could safe us both some time by just not responding

Don't you think that response is possibly to save you the headache of fucking up your watch and maybe costing you more money than it should?

Don't be an ingrate and throttle back. Don't touch a watch of this complexity unless you have actual practice. Heed the advice.

 

[HootschiGootschi]

I would try to repair it myself. There is no watchsmith taking in reps. And sending it in does not make much sense for me as I am not sure who to trust.

As mentioned the trusted dealer sold it like that. The QC images showed something on the time graph but he said that it is not to worry about.

I would learn fixing a watch. But need to know where to look.

And without offense to you. Your comment is not helpful at all. Because one can always narrow down an issue or exclude certain aspects.

Can it be the oil? Is it the mainspring? If it is the gear what would be the signs?

I am raising this question to this community to find help. If the first comment is always “bring it to a watchmaker noob” then I must say the comment is not helpful and you could safe us both some time by just not responding

Really sorry if my comments doesn’t reach you the way they where meant.
I meant it well & not bad.

I follow your „advice“ & stop responding / commenting further.

 

[raytron]

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate that

It doesn’t give me much of a headache. I don’t mind the money. I thought I don’t leave it

 

[raytron]

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate that

It doesn’t give me much of a headache. I don’t mind the money. I thought, I don't want to leave it unturned to ask the community. Perhaps something helped me.

If I mess up the movement I could buy a new one. I am currently buying all the equipment necessary for disassembling.

 

[Plaasbaas]

Well, from your information my guess would be the following:

The problem could be mainspring related.
It could also be overly lubricated.
Or it is lacking lubrication.
Could be dirt as well causing to much friction.
Or faulty parts.
Maybe it's the automatic winding gears that cause this.
Low amplitude often means that insufficient energy is being transmitted to the escapement.
Which leads us to all of the above.

Remedy: Open her up, disassemble and diagnose, go through all the fault finding steps and if you find nothing wrong with the parts, properly clean, lube and reassemble.

 

[Tschacko]

May I ask what resulted out of that ? Seems the rotor is not rotating the automatic winding wheels enough. Did anyone fix this in a smart way ?

 

[Horace_Derwent]

@raytron : I would practice on a low tier or even non-working movement, before disassembling the AP 15500 caliber (the 4302 ).

I watched several videos on YouTube over the years, regarding caliber mainteinance and servicing, and if im not mistaken different oils are used by fifferent gears nd parts of the watch caliber.

Anyeay, a great video from @CTime , the 3120 caliber of the AP 15400 from APSF, maybe you may find it helpful

 

[Horace_Derwent]

I just find out there is a video of the 4302 disassembling, exactly your caliber

Anyeay, i would first try on an inexpensive mivement before open the AP...