ZF 15400 or 15500?

[Yacht-Monster]

Hi all,

About to order what will be the first and hopefully only AP for the last spot in my watch box. I've narrowed it down to the ZF 15400 with the clone A3120 movement, or the ZF 15500 with the Miyota. I'm looking at either with the grey dial and was wondering if anyone has had either of these and the pros and cons. I've looked at all the threads here and elsewhere and could go either way. I prefer the look of the 15500, but the clone 3120 movement makes me want to go with the 15400. I'm aware of the APSF 15500, but the build isn't as good as the ZF one (plus the printed text on the movement isn't for me).

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Rman]

Why not wait a few weeks and see if ZF does a clone movement for the 15500?

 

[jkent83]

I have the ZF 15500 and the only downside of the Miyota vs. the clone movement in the new 15400 that I can think of is the noisy rotor in the Miyota (something that doesn’t really bother me and can be fixed by many watchsmiths on the forum). I would go with the ZF 15500 since you prefer it. As an additional bonus, the Miyota is going to be much easier to service than a cloned AP movement.

 

[Yacht-Monster]

.

 

[Yacht-Monster]

Why not wait a few weeks and see if ZF does a clone movement for the 15500?

I've asked a few TDs if they think ZF will do it, but they've said they think it will take longer than a few weeks due to having to make new dials, cases etc. Thanks @jkent83 it's a hard decision, but the reliability of the Miyota movement is a plus for sure.

 

[cranestep]

I've thinking about these two also, considering my first AP.
I personally prefer 15500 4302 because of the instant date change, otherwise there will be Cinderella moments with 15400.
I am waiting to see if ZF could fix APS 15500 two major problem: dial color and movement color (change to rose gold).
Both can still be modded tho.

 

[thisrollyisholy]

I have the ZF 15500 and the only downside of the Miyota vs. the clone movement in the new 15400 that I can think of is the noisy rotor in the Miyota (something that doesn’t really bother me and can be fixed by many watchsmiths on the forum). I would go with the ZF 15500 since you prefer it. As an additional bonus, the Miyota is going to be much easier to service than a cloned AP movement.

I agree with this. The 15500 has a cleaner look for me and the Miyota being a common enough movement for easier servicing made me pull the trigger with a ZF 15500 black dial (awaiting for it to be shipped and arrive)

 

[legend]

Hi all,

About to order what will be the first and hopefully only AP for the last spot in my watch box. I've narrowed it down to the ZF 15400 with the clone A3120 movement, or the ZF 15500 with the Miyota. I'm looking at either with the grey dial and was wondering if anyone has had either of these and the pros and cons. I've looked at all the threads here and elsewhere and could go either way. I prefer the look of the 15500, but the clone 3120 movement makes me want to go with the 15400. I'm aware of the APSF 15500, but the build isn't as good as the ZF one (plus the printed text on the movement isn't for me).

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

As spoken via PM, 15500 is the way to go. The ultimate inexpensive (relatively) solution to have a wearable Royal oak, for me, is to get the APSF 15500 and use a ZF dial and put them together. Refinish and spruce up mods are optional for real life wear. I do recommend getting the movement serviced because I’ve opened 2 up so far, sent in by other members and they are both dirty and dry. Yes it’s only a sample size of 2 for these clone movements so far but one of them also arrived DOA despite a rosy timegrapher presentation. So yes, between the two I will highly recommend the 15500 over the 15400.
Personal opinion but one based on gen ownership and casual comparison with the APSF 15500. Yes it’s not perfect. But it’s more than adequate for real life credibility. Go for it. And you’re welcome.

 

[Rman]

If you don't want to change the dial, what dial colour APSF 15500 would you @legend say is the closest to gen? I'm stuck between grey and blue but open to black if you think it's the best of the 3 that APSF has to offer.

Or do you think it's best to wait for ZF to release a new 15500 with super clone movement?

 

[legend]

Between the grey and blue, the rep blue is definitely closer. I do suspect they will never get the grey color and finish correct.

This is my gen grey 15500. Among my 3x gen 15500s I wear this as it is my favorite color and nothing the rep can copy convincingly.
So if you want "close", avoid the grey, and go for blue or black.

 

[X24222]

As spoken via PM, 15500 is the way to go. The ultimate inexpensive (relatively) solution to have a wearable Royal oak, for me, is to get the APSF 15500 and use a ZF dial and put them together. Refinish and spruce up mods are optional for real life wear. I do recommend getting the movement serviced because I’ve opened 2 up so far, sent in by other members and they are both dirty and dry. Yes it’s only a sample size of 2 for these clone movements so far but one of them also arrived DOA despite a rosy timegrapher presentation. So yes, between the two I will highly recommend the 15500 over the 15400.
Personal opinion but one based on gen ownership and casual comparison with the APSF 15500. Yes it’s not perfect. But it’s more than adequate for real life credibility. Go for it. And you’re welcome.

Thanks Legend -- your quick takes are always insightful. Now that you have seen and serviced two A4302 movements, how would you rate the quality of the clone movements (and therefore expected long-term reliability)? Thinking of the noob v4 Daytona movement that is highly praised by this community and whether this clone could come close to that level of acclaim.

 

[legend]

Thanks Legend -- your quick takes are always insightful. Now that you have seen and serviced two A4302 movements, how would you rate the quality of the clone movements (and therefore expected long-term reliability)? Thinking of the noob v4 Daytona movement that is highly praised by this community and whether this clone could come close to that level of acclaim.

I would say that finishing wise, they cannot match the gen, but you already knew that. Functionally, the alignment of parts on these 2 aren't bad, but of course not as precise as the gen. They do work, but like the A4130, I will highly recommend a movement cleaning and servicing to optimize the performance of the movement. It is a commendable effort by APSF to produce this, and I am happy about the movement. At this price, it is almost a wonder how they can produce a clone of this movement, and yes its a clone movement from inspection. I do not yet know what parts are replaceable with gen and what aren't but I would rate this movement on par with the A4130 clone. I will personally recommend that whomever buys this movement also consider servicing it if it is meant for long term use.

 

[X24222]

I would say that finishing wise, they cannot match the gen, but you already knew that. Functionally, the alignment of parts on these 2 aren't bad, but of course not as precise as the gen. They do work, but like the A4130, I will highly recommend a movement cleaning and servicing to optimize the performance of the movement. It is a commendable effort by APSF to produce this, and I am happy about the movement. At this price, it is almost a wonder how they can produce a clone of this movement, and yes its a clone movement from inspection. I do not yet know what parts are replaceable with gen and what aren't but I would rate this movement on par with the A4130 clone. I will personally recommend that whomever buys this movement also consider servicing it if it is meant for long term use.

Thanks for the insight. Definitely the right direction for this hobby, which is great. A ZF clone if it eventually comes out would be very interesting to see.

 

[X24222]

Thanks for the insight. Definitely the right direction for this hobby, which is great. A ZF clone if it eventually comes out would be very interesting to see.

In the meantime, sounds like we can buy the APSF with confidence if we service the movement

 

[legend]

Thanks for the insight. Definitely the right direction for this hobby, which is great. A ZF clone if it eventually comes out would be very interesting to see.

I will not expect the ZF to be drastically different. There is a reason why AP produces only 40k-50k watches a year, a paltry quantity compared with Rolex's close to 1 million watches. And out of the production figure, maybe 30% are Royal Oaks. That pegs it around 12000-15000 Royal Oaks a year, to serve the worldwide market. Each of these watches are finished exquisitely, and there is a reason why the AP Royal Oaks are always in high demand. It is a watch synonymous with superlative finishing and detailing and is second to none IMHO in the luxury 3-hand sport watch category.
If you compare the hand-finished gen to the machine finished, mass produced reps, of course the differences will be stark to the trained eye. There is no logical way any factory mass-produced rep can emulate the gen perfectly.

Having said that, do I think the APSF 15500 is convincing in real life? I certainly do. The differences I mentioned are academic, as opposed to real-life obvious. Just get one, slap it on and wear it with pride and confidence, and nobody will call you out. I will call it a better rep than the CF Daytona personally, given that the daytona has a lot more details to call out on the dial, case and bezel. The 15500 is by contrast a lot simpler, and yes the dial tappisseries are different on the gen and rep but this is NOT evident in real life, under most social settings. If nobody in your group carries a 2x loupe ready to inspect everyone's watches at the drop of the hat, you will be safe with this watch. Remember that we discuss academic differences in the forum. These are largely not observable in the real world setting.

 

[X24222]

I will not expect the ZF to be drastically different. There is a reason why AP produces only 40k-50k watches a year, a paltry quantity compared with Rolex's close to 1 million watches. And out of the production figure, maybe 30% are Royal Oaks. That pegs it around 12000-15000 Royal Oaks a year, to serve the worldwide market. Each of these watches are finished exquisitely, and there is a reason why the AP Royal Oaks are always in high demand. It is a watch synonymous with superlative finishing and detailing and is second to none IMHO in the luxury 3-hand sport watch category.
If you compare the hand-finished gen to the machine finished, mass produced reps, of course the differences will be stark to the trained eye. There is no logical way any factory mass-produced rep can emulate the gen perfectly.

Having said that, do I think the APSF 15500 is convincing in real life? I certainly do. The differences I mentioned are academic, as opposed to real-life obvious. Just get one, slap it on and wear it with pride and confidence, and nobody will call you out. I will call it a better rep than the CF Daytona personally, given that the daytona has a lot more details to call out on the dial, case and bezel. The 15500 is by contrast a lot simpler, and yes the dial tappisseries are different on the gen and rep but this is NOT evident in real life, under most social settings. If nobody in your group carries a 2x loupe ready to inspect everyone's watches at the drop of the hat, you will be safe with this watch. Remember that we discuss academic differences in the forum. These are largely not observable in the real world setting.

Great points. I didn't know ROs were only 30% of the overall output which is sobering but makes sense. I bought a gen 15720ST from my local AP boutique this year and the movement finishing is first-rate. I am now on the waitlist for the 26240ST blue or green dial now (who knows if I ever get a call but the SA seems capable). That said, I am in awe of these cloned movements being produced at the volumes they are at the quality / price point balance.

 

[Yacht-Monster]

As spoken via PM, 15500 is the way to go. The ultimate inexpensive (relatively) solution to have a wearable Royal oak, for me, is to get the APSF 15500 and use a ZF dial and put them together. Refinish and spruce up mods are optional for real life wear. I do recommend getting the movement serviced because I’ve opened 2 up so far, sent in by other members and they are both dirty and dry. Yes it’s only a sample size of 2 for these clone movements so far but one of them also arrived DOA despite a rosy timegrapher presentation. So yes, between the two I will highly recommend the 15500 over the 15400.
Personal opinion but one based on gen ownership and casual comparison with the APSF 15500. Yes it’s not perfect. But it’s more than adequate for real life credibility. Go for it. And you’re welcome.

Thanks again @legend

This is great not only for me, but for others in my situation to know. Cheers

 

[beneton]

Has anyone looked at the A3120 caliber clone? I am interested to know if any fake wheels, jewels …
A second thought I have is that it seems more difficult to source genuine parts for AP. On the other hand, I do not know if the clone is compatible with genuine parts? Cheers.