Hey guys,looking thru the thread totals here,you will see that there are far more threads on the Pam forum then the other brands,but most Pam owners will tell you "most people have not heard of Panerai"....so whats the deal?...i like my Pam reps as well,but had never heard of Panerai till i came across these boards....why is there such a demand for pam reps when there seems to be no demand fo gens?...or am i missing something?.... 8)
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Why the popularity in Pam reps but not gens?...
- Thread starter dave123
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Gens are very limited in supply, so that is part of it. Also, they are extremely expensive for what you get in most cases - modestly re-worked movement, few complications, SS cases, leather straps. $300 for a rep is a good deal. $4k for a gen is low value, IMO.
o.k...i will ask another question....why would anyone pay thousands for a gen that nobody has a clue is worth thousands?...everyone that has seen my reps would never believe the price of the gens...they are a simple looking watch,they do grow on ya and i love mine,but show me the most expensive gen before joining these boards and i would think the watch was up there with a Casio or a kids play watch to be honest...am i making any sense on this subject or is it time for bed?...lol...
subzero1 said:
What Subzero1 said.
Remember that Panerai is the Rolex of our generation, IMO. It's a cult watch, but unlike Rolexes, we today have the luxury of being part of a select group of people who seemingly know of the marque.
It appeals to the niche collector's vanity, to be part of this comparatively small, knowing crowd.
To own a gen Panerai isn't cheap. A metal bracelet alone can cost up to USD2500. Buckles are USD200 used. It may not be in Patek and Vacheron territory, but it's just as much a statement of excess wealth when you own one, since few people stop at one strap -- itself a great reason to collect Panerai watches.
There are many reasons, but I don't think in the US there is a better one than the "coolness" factor. PAMs are just plain cool watches.
dave123 said:
The average person will not know the value of any expensive watch outside of rolex. Given the truth of that statement, why buy any expensive watch besides rolex, if "why would anyone pay thousands for a gen that nobody has a clue is worth thousands" is that important to you?
Could also be that because of the 'simplistic' styling of a PAM it's easier to replicate accurately; from the dial, to the case, to the movement. And since we strive for accuracy, along with a brand with so called prestige, status, and aesthetic appeal, panerai's are a good choice.
What I find borderline insane is the level of scrutiny we get caught up in with the Panerai reps. 1/10ths of a mm crown differences, CG thickness, even lume mixtures. You have to learn a whole new vocabulary just to start to collect them. Then you have to take Panerai History 101 just to decifer what the heck "pre-V, and E,F,G,H means.
But these people who obsess over these minute details (including myself) are the same people who can live with PO Chrono/Moonwatch subdial spacing, frozen second 6 Portuguese, incorrect HE valve placements, subpar pearls, and "who makes the best sub anyway?".
I wish I'd never heard of Panarai...bastards!
What I find borderline insane is the level of scrutiny we get caught up in with the Panerai reps. 1/10ths of a mm crown differences, CG thickness, even lume mixtures. You have to learn a whole new vocabulary just to start to collect them. Then you have to take Panerai History 101 just to decifer what the heck "pre-V, and E,F,G,H means.
But these people who obsess over these minute details (including myself) are the same people who can live with PO Chrono/Moonwatch subdial spacing, frozen second 6 Portuguese, incorrect HE valve placements, subpar pearls, and "who makes the best sub anyway?".
I wish I'd never heard of Panarai...bastards!
Panerai is presently one of the most sought after and 'hip' watches on the market. Inventories are next to nothing at AD stores on east and west coasts. From the Hamptons to Beverly Hills, Pam watches are THE watch. A recent phenomenon, but a fact nonetheless. Take a quick stroll through Paneristi.com and one gets a good snapshot of the clamor. It is logical that the rep industry follow suit.
babola
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Panerai brought this rep deamon upon themselves. They simply became a victim of their own (Richemont group) marketing engine, pushing the prices up for most of us mortals that we simply have to turn to the 'dark side' of our hobby
How do you preserve an exclusivity, attrectiveness and panache of the watch that once was choice of only a few? And to be honest it wasn't their choice at first place, they were just lucky to be part of a chosen team, that were given a cool looking, well and thoughtfuly designed, technologicaly superior watch at the time, for their underwater missions.
Today, the 'watch' is owned by a much larger luxury watch brand group, riding a wave of its popularity and charisma of the past...but really the only 'Panerai' in the watch you buy today at AD is the name and some design details reminiscent of the originals from 30's - 50's as well as early 90's.
The fact remains, its an awesome looking watch, design of which was often replicated and copied by other brands with more or less success, simplistic in it's appeal, nature and function...block of squarish monolithic piece of S/S filed with 'dinner plate' dial with simple and bold markers and numerals, dark siluetted hands, minimalistic dial txt, prominent lugs and the crown guard assembly to admire on every glance and simply to die for.
Gen PAMs overpriced ? You betcha. With exception of noteworthy few SE models with mov'ts of high complications, most of them are just $350-500 worth watches riding the high $$ wave of Richemont's marketing engine. Yes, some would say, but they have to pay for that marketing, production costs in Switzerland are not exactly low, there are too many mouths to feed in the foodchain from stamping the first steel case die to the finished product etc...but I don't subscribe to that theory much.
I could live with 111H for example being sold for some 1K, but not much more. It's simply NOT worth more than that in its current shape and form.
For those of you who know me, you know how much I am infatuated by these little critters, so much so that sometimes in the morning before work I get all confused as to which one of my "precious reps" will I wear that day. Love them all to bits, and will most likely never sold most of them....AND...will unlikely buy a gen PAM again... :wink:
babola
How do you preserve an exclusivity, attrectiveness and panache of the watch that once was choice of only a few? And to be honest it wasn't their choice at first place, they were just lucky to be part of a chosen team, that were given a cool looking, well and thoughtfuly designed, technologicaly superior watch at the time, for their underwater missions.
Today, the 'watch' is owned by a much larger luxury watch brand group, riding a wave of its popularity and charisma of the past...but really the only 'Panerai' in the watch you buy today at AD is the name and some design details reminiscent of the originals from 30's - 50's as well as early 90's.
The fact remains, its an awesome looking watch, design of which was often replicated and copied by other brands with more or less success, simplistic in it's appeal, nature and function...block of squarish monolithic piece of S/S filed with 'dinner plate' dial with simple and bold markers and numerals, dark siluetted hands, minimalistic dial txt, prominent lugs and the crown guard assembly to admire on every glance and simply to die for.
Gen PAMs overpriced ? You betcha. With exception of noteworthy few SE models with mov'ts of high complications, most of them are just $350-500 worth watches riding the high $$ wave of Richemont's marketing engine. Yes, some would say, but they have to pay for that marketing, production costs in Switzerland are not exactly low, there are too many mouths to feed in the foodchain from stamping the first steel case die to the finished product etc...but I don't subscribe to that theory much.
I could live with 111H for example being sold for some 1K, but not much more.
It's simply NOT worth more than that in its current shape and form. For those of you who know me, you know how much I am infatuated by these little critters, so much so that sometimes in the morning before work I get all confused as to which one of my "precious reps" will I wear that day. Love them all to bits, and will most likely never sold most of them....AND...will unlikely buy a gen PAM again... :wink:
babola
subzero1 said:
Actually not where i live,maybe its that way where you live,any Rolex's here are deemed as fake even if real as there are so many fakes out there...Breitling is a well known high end brand and thats why i like my reps of them,especially my BCE as its a very good rep,i do like my Pam reps so dont think i am trying to knock them,i am not...just such an odd,unheard of brand that makes me wonder who would shell out the big $ for a gen,though there is a huge demand (here anyway) for reps...
Yes,i f i was going to shell out thousands for a gen watch i would want people to know that it is not a $25 watch,sure..people don't dive Ferrari's just because they are fast,because they are well known to be big $...
Does anyone here know anybody that has bought a gen Pam?...
I've seen lots of gen Panerai "in the wild" here. There is a good sized AD at one of the more popular malls here, too.
By this time next year I'll likely have a gen 210 or perhaps 000. All gens are overpriced, the question of HOW overpriced they are is open for interpretation. Lots of people argue that brands using "in house" movements justify a higher price, as they are offering something you can't get anywhere else. While this makes sense, to a degree, ask yourself how long ago Rolex recouped ALL the R&D money for their movements and are now only paying for production costs of those movements. That argument starts to lose its luster in a big hurry, doesn't it?
Omega's co-axial movement at least holds a bigger tangible value, with its longer warranty period and longer maintenance intervals (servicing costs big $$$ when dealing with gen luxury watches).
Then you have to factor in how much the design is worth. That's where Panerai is cashing in. There isn't another luxury, or even mid-tier, watch house that is offering anything that looks like a Panerai.
When I get my gen PAM, I won't care who recognizes it as a $4K watch. I'll like it and appreciate it and that's all that matters.
By this time next year I'll likely have a gen 210 or perhaps 000. All gens are overpriced, the question of HOW overpriced they are is open for interpretation. Lots of people argue that brands using "in house" movements justify a higher price, as they are offering something you can't get anywhere else. While this makes sense, to a degree, ask yourself how long ago Rolex recouped ALL the R&D money for their movements and are now only paying for production costs of those movements. That argument starts to lose its luster in a big hurry, doesn't it?
Omega's co-axial movement at least holds a bigger tangible value, with its longer warranty period and longer maintenance intervals (servicing costs big $$$ when dealing with gen luxury watches).
Then you have to factor in how much the design is worth. That's where Panerai is cashing in. There isn't another luxury, or even mid-tier, watch house that is offering anything that looks like a Panerai.
When I get my gen PAM, I won't care who recognizes it as a $4K watch. I'll like it and appreciate it and that's all that matters.
same is said for ALL jewerly and accessories market. Everything Haut Horologie has become vanity jewerly for men (for the masses at least) as opposed to the initial progression of mechanical science of time.
MAC makeup charges 300x their overhead for their final product, diamonds about 4~6x more, etc. The list goes on.
We're no different than women... we just vent via watches as it can be a rather phalic statement.
MAC makeup charges 300x their overhead for their final product, diamonds about 4~6x more, etc. The list goes on.
We're no different than women... we just vent via watches as it can be a rather phalic statement.
Tha Pams never had marketing vision of Rolex. But the Panerai are more and more prevalent all the time. Believe it or not I think Sylvester Stallone is responsible for Pams current growth!!!!! He wore a Pam Daylight, in the movie of the same name. This watch was custom made for the movie. He liked it so much, he had several more made for him that he gave as gifts to his Hollywood buddies. These unknown watchs started to appear on the "red carpet" at Hollywood functions and the curiosity in these watches skyrocketed. I could be wrong on some of this cause I'm more interested in women stars...... :shock: So feel free to correct any misinformation.... :wink:
Higgy 8)
Higgy 8)
Nope, that's pretty much it, Higgy. Although, from what I've read, Sly was a fan of Panerai before the movie. Keep in mind that Panerai, as a luxury brand, is MUCH younger than Rolex or even Breitling or Omega. To compare their marketing to Rolex is a bit unfair, IMO. Having said that, I've yet to see any print/billboard adverts for Panerai EVER. Looks like word of mouth is working well enough for them at the moment.
As a owner of a number of gens I have gone back and forth on buying a gen Panerai. The biggest issue was the ones I like contain the reworked unitas movement and I just have a hard time paying 4k for $80 base movement, especially when our reps are so good. The one thing that has me interested again is the new in-house movements. Finally there is something unique about the new models coming out. The new chrono movement (the 2002 I think) has some very promising design features built into it. I wouldn't be surprised to see one in my watch case in the future. That is unless someone figures out how to rep those movements as well, which I doubt will happen.
As far as the brand; I see it as almost the anti-rolex. One of the watches that says "I know just enough about watches to not buy a rolex". It's not that rolex doesn't have its place, it's just that every person with more money than interest buys them and thinks they are the best made watch in the world.
Cheers!
As far as the brand; I see it as almost the anti-rolex. One of the watches that says "I know just enough about watches to not buy a rolex". It's not that rolex doesn't have its place, it's just that every person with more money than interest buys them and thinks they are the best made watch in the world.
Cheers!
And don't forget Jason Statham wore Pams in both the "Transporter" movies. At least in my area, they had quite good attendance at the theater, so for sure the watch was seen by quite a few eyes.
For me, that is where I first saw that 'big' watch. As an architect, the design appeals to me totally.
For me, that is where I first saw that 'big' watch. As an architect, the design appeals to me totally.
Right, once you get past base costs, the design (style), fit and finish, and percieved status as a "luxury item" are what drives price. Right now Panerai has all of these, plus a cool history and a limited production, all of which contribute to the high price. It certainly isn't that they are expensive to make (they are not), rather it is these other factors that really push the price to (starting at) $4k.
Thanks for the responces guys....so what i gather is that the unknown thing with Pams is likely coming to an end soon as they are becoming more mainstream and showing off mine (rep of course) will have me looking like a guy in the know ahead of time... :lol:
I owned a gen Rolex,got tired of being asked if it was real and sending it to Rolex for a $600 servicing was annoying so i got rid of it,but i do like Pams and if they do catch on,i would buy a gen.... 8)
I owned a gen Rolex,got tired of being asked if it was real and sending it to Rolex for a $600 servicing was annoying so i got rid of it,but i do like Pams and if they do catch on,i would buy a gen.... 8)
The "Allure" of PAMs"
I've gotten about 12 PAM Reps, and I recently acquired my first gen, (25J) from an AD. Within about 4 weeks, I puirchased 2 more gens (a 91D and a 72E), both pre-owned. One of the differences between PAM gens and other brands, is that both of the pre-owned PAMs I bought have increased oin value since I bought them. If a minimal amount of care is used in buying pre-owned PAMS, you'll generally be able to get your money back, if not a small profit.
While on the topic of gen PAMS, I agree with some that the watches are generally very basic, with ho-hum movements and no complications. One of the reasons I bought the 72 is that is uses the Zenith El-Primero movement, as well as having the looks to allow it to be worn for business.
Finally, just as this list has a great community of Replica fans, the group of Paneristi who are fans of gen PAMs is also a great community.
I've gotten about 12 PAM Reps, and I recently acquired my first gen, (25J) from an AD. Within about 4 weeks, I puirchased 2 more gens (a 91D and a 72E), both pre-owned. One of the differences between PAM gens and other brands, is that both of the pre-owned PAMs I bought have increased oin value since I bought them. If a minimal amount of care is used in buying pre-owned PAMS, you'll generally be able to get your money back, if not a small profit.
While on the topic of gen PAMS, I agree with some that the watches are generally very basic, with ho-hum movements and no complications. One of the reasons I bought the 72 is that is uses the Zenith El-Primero movement, as well as having the looks to allow it to be worn for business.
Finally, just as this list has a great community of Replica fans, the group of Paneristi who are fans of gen PAMs is also a great community.
Did anyone see this Pam?
I think the word is out...
http://cgi.ebay.com/OFFICINE-PANERAI-51 ... dZViewItem
I think the word is out...
http://cgi.ebay.com/OFFICINE-PANERAI-51 ... dZViewItem
I just bought a gen pam 164 from the Panerai Beverly Hills Boutique. I don't care if people recognize it or not, I love the watch and its worth every penny. It goes well with near everything I wear from a suit, to shorts.
I wear a $9,000 Rolex Rose Gold Z series, roman, black MOP, DJ as well. I can care less if people think its real or not either. I wear ones I like because I want to. And I buy reps that I like that I may not love so much to buy the gen. I have 2 pam reps, one a 205A Slytech, that I can't find a gen and if i did I'd not want to pay for!
Fads come and go, but classic designs stay forever. Rolex and Panerai have classic not going out of style designs. I like buying timeless fashion.
I wear a $9,000 Rolex Rose Gold Z series, roman, black MOP, DJ as well. I can care less if people think its real or not either. I wear ones I like because I want to. And I buy reps that I like that I may not love so much to buy the gen. I have 2 pam reps, one a 205A Slytech, that I can't find a gen and if i did I'd not want to pay for!
Fads come and go, but classic designs stay forever. Rolex and Panerai have classic not going out of style designs. I like buying timeless fashion.