VSF 3235

[dogwood]

Ok I found a much better app. These are the values with the watch face up just for a quick reference. I will do the other positions and post. I also added the magnetism value that the app gave me. I am not sure if that is a good value or not. The faster value is after I shook the watch a bit. It takes a few minutes to calm down back to the regulated speed.

Honestly these time grapher numbers (if they're at all accurate) aren't bad. But as another person has said, time grapher apps aren't great. The problem isn't in the software of the app, it's in the hardware of the phone. A timegrapher is a very sensitive microphone with a dedicated signal amplification circuit... the mic on a smartphone is just not able to pickup the same level of details. I suspect your results using an app would vary greatly depending on the ambient sound level in the room where you're doing the testing.

But let's assume these numbers are accurate... what do the numbers mean? Well for starters +1.1s/d, 261deg, and 0.2ms are very healthy numbers for the vs3235 movement. Amplitude should ideally be around 240 to 290, but a little lower or a little higher isn't the bad either. If the amplitude is below 200 there's a problem. The beat error of 0.2ms is fine, your watch can keep good time with a beat error up to 0.6ms (although 0.0ms is ideal), but I wouldn't bother correcting the beat error that's this low if I had your watch on my bench. Now for the numbers after you shake the watch: +11s/d, 284deg, and 0.3ms... your amplitude increased a little, that might be because when you shook the watch the automatic winding mechanism wound up the mainspring a little causing it to temporarily increase its torque (this can happen as the mainspring bridle is pulled out of a stop on the barrel wall), if it settles after a minute or two, then it's nothing to worry about.

Your rate increased slightly when the amplitude increased... that's an indicator that your hairspring is slightly non-linear. Given the fact that the rate increased as the amplitude increased it means your hairspring is very slightly super-linear (that means the force the hairspring provides doesn't grow linearly with balance rotation, it grows slightly faster than linearly). This is a limitation of the materials and design of rep hairsprings.

Gen hairsprings are made from 85% Niobium / 15% Zirconium are manufactured down to 0.1micron precision (that's about 1/1000th the width of a human hair). Your vs3235 movement's hairspring was made of a Chinesium alloy in a factory on the North Korean border (Dandong) by a worker who was paid less than $10 per day for his labour. There's a reason why a gen Rolex costs what it does... your VSF rep is good, but it's not gen and it never will be. And that's ok. You paid 2.5% of the gen price and got 97.5% of the quality.

 

[NOTT3]

Honestly these time grapher numbers (if they're at all accurate) aren't bad. But as another person has said, time grapher apps aren't great. The problem isn't in the software of the app, it's in the hardware of the phone. A timegrapher is a very sensitive microphone with a dedicated signal amplification circuit... the mic on a smartphone is just not able to pickup the same level of details. I suspect your results using an app would vary greatly depending on the ambient sound level in the room where you're doing the testing.

But let's assume these numbers are accurate... what do the numbers mean? Well for starters +1.1s/d, 261deg, and 0.2ms are very healthy numbers for the vs3235 movement. Amplitude should ideally be around 240 to 290, but a little lower or a little higher isn't the bad either. If the amplitude is below 200 there's a problem. The beat error of 0.2ms is fine, your watch can keep good time with a beat error up to 0.6ms (although 0.0ms is ideal), but I wouldn't bother correcting the beat error that's this low if I had your watch on my bench. Now for the numbers after you shake the watch: +11s/d, 284deg, and 0.3ms... your amplitude increased a little, that might be because when you shook the watch the automatic winding mechanism wound up the mainspring a little causing it to temporarily increase its torque (this can happen as the mainspring bridle is pulled out of a stop on the barrel wall), if it settles after a minute or two, then it's nothing to worry about.

Your rate increased slightly when the amplitude increased... that's an indicator that your hairspring is slightly non-linear. Given the fact that the rate increased as the amplitude increased it means your hairspring is very slightly super-linear (that means the force the hairspring provides doesn't grow linearly with balance rotation, it grows slightly faster than linearly). This is a limitation of the materials and design of rep hairsprings.

Gen hairsprings are made from 85% Niobium / 15% Zirconium are manufactured down to 0.1micron precision (that's about 1/1000th the width of a human hair). Your vs3235 movement's hairspring was made of a Chinesium alloy in a factory on the North Korean border (Dandong) by a worker who was paid less than $10 per day for his labour. There's a reason why a gen Rolex costs what it does... your VSF rep is good, but it's not gen and it never will be. And that's ok. You paid 2.5% of the gen price and got 97.5% of the quality.

I had the same problem with the vs3235. normally amplitude about 250 degrees and -2, with a variation of about -10 in motion;
if instead I move the watch vigorously (but not too much) for 20 seconds, the amplitude rises to almost 300 and marks +18/20 compared to the starting position.
I attach photos

 

[NOTT3]

I had the same problem with the vs3235. normally amplitude about 250 degrees and -2, with a variation of about -10 in motion;
if instead I move the watch vigorously (but not too much) for 20 seconds, the amplitude rises to almost 300 and marks +18/20 compared to the starting position.
I attach photos

I managed to adjust it so that at night at rest it shows +8 and during the day when moving it shows -6

 

[dogwood]

I had the same problem with the vs3235. normally amplitude about 250 degrees and -2, with a variation of about -10 in motion;
if instead I move the watch vigorously (but not too much) for 20 seconds, the amplitude rises to almost 300 and marks +18/20 compared to the starting position.
I attach photos

It appears that your vs3235 hairspring is also super-linear i.e. increase in amplitude -> increase in rate. The non-linearity of the hairspring appears to be relatively small. But interesting to see nonethless.

 

[NOTT3]

It appears that your vs3235 hairspring is also super-linear i.e. increase in amplitude -> increase in rate. The non-linearity of the hairspring appears to be relatively small. But interesting to see nonethless.

Is the only remedy to change the spiral? can't we do anything else?

 

[dogwood]

Is the only remedy to change the spiral? can't we do anything else?

If you have €800 burning a hole in your pocket you could replace the vs3235 balance with a gen balance. But remember you have a super computer in your pocket that’s connected to a satellite synchronized atomic clock (aka GPS time signals). If you need to know the time precisely, look in your pocket. If you want to know if you’re gonna be late for Sunday dinner with your parents, glance at your wrist.

 

[NOTT3]

If you have €800 burning a hole in your pocket you could replace the vs3235 balance with a gen balance. But remember you have a super computer in your pocket that’s connected to a satellite synchronized atomic clock (aka GPS time signals). If you need to know the time precisely, look in your pocket. If you want to know if you’re gonna be late for Sunday dinner with your parents, glance at your wrist.

Thank you for your technical advice, you are always very valuable.
But I don't agree with your last statement, my passion for watches doesn't just concern aesthetics, but also curiosity regarding the technique inside a watch, be it rep or gen. So, we always try to achieve the best possible perfection, just for fun.

 

[Zeta7]

Honestly these time grapher numbers (if they're at all accurate) aren't bad. But as another person has said, time grapher apps aren't great. The problem isn't in the software of the app, it's in the hardware of the phone. A timegrapher is a very sensitive microphone with a dedicated signal amplification circuit... the mic on a smartphone is just not able to pickup the same level of details. I suspect your results using an app would vary greatly depending on the ambient sound level in the room where you're doing the testing.

But let's assume these numbers are accurate... what do the numbers mean? Well for starters +1.1s/d, 261deg, and 0.2ms are very healthy numbers for the vs3235 movement. Amplitude should ideally be around 240 to 290, but a little lower or a little higher isn't the bad either. If the amplitude is below 200 there's a problem. The beat error of 0.2ms is fine, your watch can keep good time with a beat error up to 0.6ms (although 0.0ms is ideal), but I wouldn't bother correcting the beat error that's this low if I had your watch on my bench. Now for the numbers after you shake the watch: +11s/d, 284deg, and 0.3ms... your amplitude increased a little, that might be because when you shook the watch the automatic winding mechanism wound up the mainspring a little causing it to temporarily increase its torque (this can happen as the mainspring bridle is pulled out of a stop on the barrel wall), if it settles after a minute or two, then it's nothing to worry about.

Your rate increased slightly when the amplitude increased... that's an indicator that your hairspring is slightly non-linear. Given the fact that the rate increased as the amplitude increased it means your hairspring is very slightly super-linear (that means the force the hairspring provides doesn't grow linearly with balance rotation, it grows slightly faster than linearly). This is a limitation of the materials and design of rep hairsprings.

Gen hairsprings are made from 85% Niobium / 15% Zirconium are manufactured down to 0.1micron precision (that's about 1/1000th the width of a human hair). Your vs3235 movement's hairspring was made of a Chinesium alloy in a factory on the North Korean border (Dandong) by a worker who was paid less than $10 per day for his labour. There's a reason why a gen Rolex costs what it does... your VSF rep is good, but it's not gen and it never will be. And that's ok. You paid 2.5% of the gen price and got 97.5% of the quality.

Did you just say what I wish I could say?

 

[SaltyChief]

I emailed the AD and asked to see if they can obtain a new movement from the VS Factory that I can purchase. I agree that it is not horrible but it will drive me crazy speeding up like that when it is worn. Maybe I can get lucky and get a movement that doesn't have such a variation. I will also see if I can swap a 2892 or L888 into it. My hydroconquest runs nearly perfect (+/-m 1sec). This is definitely a risk with any rep, like it was mentioned we pay a tiny fraction of the gen price for a reason.

 

[Zeta7]

I emailed the AD and asked to see if they can obtain a new movement from the VS Factory that I can purchase. I agree that it is not horrible but it will drive me crazy speeding up like that when it is worn. Maybe I can get lucky and get a movement that doesn't have such a variation. I will also see if I can swap a 2892 or L888 into it. My hydroconquest runs nearly perfect (+/-m 1sec). This is definitely a risk with any rep, like it was mentioned we pay a tiny fraction of the gen price for a reason.

Have you considered a rep of a gen with a quartz movement? Not my thing but they’re out there.

 

[cotti-rottie]

Amazing explanation. Best read I’ve had in ages and certainly explains some of the schizophrenic behaviour I’ve seen in some of reps. ( and gens )

agreed…. totally impressed with the knowledge of some of the guys on here

 

[SaltyChief]

Have you considered a rep of a gen with a quartz movement? Not my thing but they’re out there.

I prefer automatic watches though there are some very nice quartz models out there. I have several automatics that run far better than this rep. They have movements ranging from NH35, 2824's to 2892 and L888. All of them run far better than this rep does. If this cannot not be serviced to run better I will replace the movement with a replacement VS3235 or 2892, SW1000. Either way replacing the movement is still far less than gen.

 

[Zeta7]

I prefer automatic watches though there are some very nice quartz models out there. I have several automatics that run far better than this rep. They have movements ranging from NH35, 2824's to 2892 and L888. All of them run far better than this rep does. If this cannot not be serviced to run better I will replace the movement with a replacement VS3235 or 2892, SW1000. Either way replacing the movement is still far less than gen.

I prefer automatic movements also. However there’s some quartz pieces like the Rolex oysterquartz that might be nice to have reps of.

 

[Slugger]

I prefer automatic watches though there are some very nice quartz models out there. I have several automatics that run far better than this rep. They have movements ranging from NH35, 2824's to 2892 and L888. All of them run far better than this rep does. If this cannot not be serviced to run better I will replace the movement with a replacement VS3235 or 2892, SW1000. Either way replacing the movement is still far less than gen.

Hope you get it sorted out but, if it comes to a bail out and replace, I believe a VR3235 would be an easier swap for your VS than ether the 2892 or SW1000.

 

[Zeta7]

Hope you get it sorted out but, if it comes to a bail out and replace, I believe a VR3235 would be an easier swap for your VS than ether the 2892 or SW1000.

Totally agree. At least the dial and hands wouldn’t need replacing.

 

[Watch Hunter]

VS3235 lift angle is 55 degrees (as is the DD3285). It's the VR3235 (and any Rolex 3135 and 4130, and ETA 28XX movement) which are 52 degrees.

Big thanks again for your insightful posts.
just receieved my QC pics for a watch which was meant to have a VS3235 movement . The life angle was 52 so this enabled me to ask the question of the TD.

 

[Jimbothegreat]

The issue could be related to poise error on the balance wheel. Poise error is where the balance wheel doesn’t have a perfectly symmetric distribution of mass. Balance wheels on reps are poised during manufacture on a machine that checks for their symmetry and removes small amounts of material on the heavy spots. On reps this process is a bit crude. On the picture below you can see the poise corrections on this vr3235 balance wheel. There have been two corrections (see the red arrows) where material has been removed. A gen balance will have more corrections resulting in a more symmetric balance wheel.




A slightly asymmetric balance wheel means that when the watch is held at different angles relative to gravity, the balance wheel will swing asymmetrically.

This asymmetric swing will affect time keeping especially if the hairspring has a non-linear restoring force. That is, the force that hairspring exerts on the balance wheel is not linear as a function of balance wheel rotation. Rep hairsprings aren’t made out of the hyper exotic alloys used on gen watches, nor do they employ the Breguet overcoil geometry (a geometric trick that makes a hairspring’s force more linear).

The issue could also be that the movement in your watch is dirty or has debris in it, or that there’s too much endshake on the pivots. All of those things will cause the amplitude of your watch to vary wildly between positions. And if your hairspring isn’t very linear, then big swings in amplitude will affect time keeping.

Here’s what you can do to test your watch: on a time grapher, measure the rate, amplitude, and beat error in each of these five positions: dial up, dial down, 9-down, 6-down, and 12-down. Set the lift angle on your time grapher to 55 degrees. Wait at least a minute in each position to get a stable reading.

The amplitude in dial up/down should be about 20-30 degrees higher than in the 9/6/12-down positions.

Ideally the rate shouldn’t change much as a function of amplitude. There’s another test we can run for this, but let’s keep things simple for now.

Post the results of your time grapher test here and let’s see what’s going on with your movement.

This clarifies so much! Thank you

 

[Watch Hunter]

Thanks again for clarifying my concerns @dogwood .

You are such an asset to this community.