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VSF 3235

SaltyChief

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Hello, I am hoping someone may be able to help me with an issue that I am having with a new rep using the VSF 3235. I received the new rep from the AD and it is physically flawless. i checked the regulation on my time graph and it runs +2 seconds per day fast. Unfortunately when worn or moved a bit the watch speeds up a lot (+30~ seconds per day). Does anyone have any idea what could be causing this? Thank you.
 

dogwood

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Hello, I am hoping someone may be able to help me with an issue that I am having with a new rep using the VSF 3235. I received the new rep from the AD and it is physically flawless. i checked the regulation on my time graph and it runs +2 seconds per day fast. Unfortunately when worn or moved a bit the watch speeds up a lot (+30~ seconds per day). Does anyone have any idea what could be causing this? Thank you.
The issue could be related to poise error on the balance wheel. Poise error is where the balance wheel doesn’t have a perfectly symmetric distribution of mass. Balance wheels on reps are poised during manufacture on a machine that checks for their symmetry and removes small amounts of material on the heavy spots. On reps this process is a bit crude. On the picture below you can see the poise corrections on this vr3235 balance wheel. There have been two corrections (see the red arrows) where material has been removed. A gen balance will have more corrections resulting in a more symmetric balance wheel.




A slightly asymmetric balance wheel means that when the watch is held at different angles relative to gravity, the balance wheel will swing asymmetrically.

This asymmetric swing will affect time keeping especially if the hairspring has a non-linear restoring force. That is, the force that hairspring exerts on the balance wheel is not linear as a function of balance wheel rotation. Rep hairsprings aren’t made out of the hyper exotic alloys used on gen watches, nor do they employ the Breguet overcoil geometry (a geometric trick that makes a hairspring’s force more linear).

The issue could also be that the movement in your watch is dirty or has debris in it, or that there’s too much endshake on the pivots. All of those things will cause the amplitude of your watch to vary wildly between positions. And if your hairspring isn’t very linear, then big swings in amplitude will affect time keeping.

Here’s what you can do to test your watch: on a time grapher, measure the rate, amplitude, and beat error in each of these five positions: dial up, dial down, 9-down, 6-down, and 12-down. Set the lift angle on your time grapher to 55 degrees. Wait at least a minute in each position to get a stable reading.

The amplitude in dial up/down should be about 20-30 degrees higher than in the 9/6/12-down positions.

Ideally the rate shouldn’t change much as a function of amplitude. There’s another test we can run for this, but let’s keep things simple for now.

Post the results of your time grapher test here and let’s see what’s going on with your movement.
 

Teamjlf

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Amazing explanation. Best read I’ve had in ages and certainly explains some of the schizophrenic behaviour I’ve seen in some of reps. ( and gens )
 

SaltyChief

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Wow that was an awesome explanation, thank you. Unfortunately I am overseas now and the only time graph that I have is the app on my phone. I will see if I can get my hands on one through an online site here in Europe and post the results for you. If this is indeed the issue how would I go about getting that fixed? Or is this something that I would be better off sending the piece back to the AD and asking them to remedy?
 

Maximillian

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when worn or moved a bit the watch speeds up a lot
How big is your action when you wear and move? I ask because I have more or less the same issue with my gen 3135, only it won't go like +30 sec, 5-8 sec perhaps when I shake it on my wrist.
 

dogwood

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Wow that was an awesome explanation, thank you. Unfortunately I am overseas now and the only time graph that I have is the app on my phone. I will see if I can get my hands on one through an online site here in Europe and post the results for you. If this is indeed the issue how would I go about getting that fixed? Or is this something that I would be better off sending the piece back to the AD and asking them to remedy?
There’s not much you can do to fix poise errors on a balance wheel. The machine that can fix them costs around €50000, so it’s not the kind of thing a watchmaker usually has.

But it’s also possible the issue is elsewhere in the watch. If the rate is only bad in one position that could be an indicator of debris in the movement or pivot endshake. Both of those are easily solved during a movement service.

The hairspring might have picked up a little bit of magnetism — something that usually makes a movement run very fast. But demagnetizer are $20 on Amazon so that’s an easy fix.

It’s also important to understand the limitations of mechanical time keeping. Even Gen standard ETA movements are only rated to +/-30 seconds per day accuracy.
 

SaltyChief

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If I wear the watch and just move around doing my normal daily things it will speed up over 30 seconds. If I set it on the desk for a few minutes it will go back to +/- 2~ seconds. These are the screen shots after I set it down and let it get back to normal and then I shook it a few times and it immediately jumped in speed. If I move it more it will continue to speed up.

 
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dogwood

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If I wear the watch and just move around doing my normal daily things it will speed up over 30 seconds. If I set it on the desk for a few minutes it will go back to +/- 2~ seconds. These are the screen shots after I set it down and let it get back to normal and then I shook it a few times and it immediately jumped in speed. If I move it more it will continue to speed up.

Can the app display amplitude? If so, that’s an important number to know in these two scenarios.
 

SaltyChief

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Unfortunately it cannot. I am looking for a watchmaker that I may be able to use their time graph tomorrow.
 
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SaltyChief

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Ok I found a much better app. These are the values with the watch face up just for a quick reference. I will do the other positions and post. I also added the magnetism value that the app gave me. I am not sure if that is a good value or not. The faster value is after I shook the watch a bit. It takes a few minutes to calm down back to the regulated speed.

 

Zeta7

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I’d wear the watch for a few days and see what it really does or doesn’t do. You’re trying to use an app to substitute for a piece of equipment and searching for interpretation of that data on a forum. There’s guys who can help but they’re gonna need good data. Just saying
 

asusundevils1971

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Think the lift angle should be 52 degrees not 55, don't know if that would help any but I am sure dogwood can answer that.
 
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SaltyChief

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I’d wear the watch for a few days and see what it really does or doesn’t do. You’re trying to use an app to substitute for a piece of equipment and searching for interpretation of that data on a forum. There’s guys who can help but they’re gonna need good data. Just saying
Ok I suppose the best thing would be to take it to a watchmaker.
 
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SaltyChief

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Any chance any of you know if I grab a 2892 or L888 can I just have it swapped into a VS Submariner case?
 

asusundevils1971

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You have the best 3235 movement that is being made right now and I wouldn't switch it out for another. Take a deep breath.... Ok now that is done... Find a rep friendly watchmaker to take a look at the movement and see what the problem is and go from there before making any decisions.

Have to remember that these watches are not made with precise or any quality control and sometimes you will come across problems. Just hope the problem you are having is a cheap and easy fix.

disclaimer: was joking about taking a deep breath lol....
 
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SaltyChief

Getting To Know The Place
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You have the best 3235 movement that is being made right now and I wouldn't switch it out for another. Take a deep breath.... Ok now that is done... Find a rep friendly watchmaker to take a look at the movement and see what the problem is and go from there before making any decisions.

Have to remember that these watches are not made with precise or any quality control and sometimes you will come across problems. Just hope the problem you are having is a cheap and easy fix.

disclaimer: was joking about taking a deep breath lol....
Solid advice.
 
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CTbeforeLP

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When dealing with substantial positional errors in timekeeping, your options are limited. You can either exchange the balance for one with fewer positional errors or switch to a genuine balance for better accuracy.

When I notice a significant positional error in one of my watches, I wear it consistently for a couple of weeks, mimicking my daily routine. At the end of this period, if I observe, for example, a deviation of around 12 seconds per day, I adjust the timing accordingly to reduce this error. This method ensures that the watch is more accurately calibrated to my wearing habits and usage patterns.
 
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Zeta7

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Ok I suppose the best thing would be to take it to a watchmaker.
I’d get one of the trusted watchsmith’s here. There’s a list of them but they are busy so it might take a while. You might want to pick up the next watch on your list to scratch that itch.