-
Tired of adverts on RWI? - Subscribe by clicking HERE and PMing Trailboss for instructions and they will magically go away!
TT Blue Dial Sub by Fakemaster
- Thread starter donaldejose
- Start date
Hogan
Sorry, I cannot make the pictures any smaller. Would if I could. My camera has three settings for photo size: large, medium and small. These are the small size photos. I guess along with sufficient pixels and a sharp lens to capture all that detail goes more photo space needed to display the detail which has been captured I am using a 23 inch monitor and the photos fill it. My apologies to all those who have to scroll. I hope it isn't too frustrating for you.
Sorry, I cannot make the pictures any smaller. Would if I could. My camera has three settings for photo size: large, medium and small. These are the small size photos. I guess along with sufficient pixels and a sharp lens to capture all that detail goes more photo space needed to display the detail which has been captured I am using a 23 inch monitor and the photos fill it. My apologies to all those who have to scroll. I hope it isn't too frustrating for you.
Haha!!
If I was supposed to buy wholesale and get the parts myself, that would indeed be possible, even for less than 60 bucks (assuming I wouldn´t be profiting obscene amounts of money for it)
ok, deal.
I can get you a ready to use watch using the same parts of your 300 one, for the $120 you offered, with gaskets greased and all.
Get ready to send the money.
Cheers,
Spirit.
Spirit
No, you missed my point. You cannot go out and buy one from the market, grease the gaskets and sell it to me. You must order all the parts from China as individual parts and then you must assemble the entire watch yourself. That is "custom building" a watch. Your offer is to just be a middleman. Play fair if you are going to play at all. Don't buy one from the market, disassemble it and reassemble it. That is not what fakemaster does. Document how you found the supplier for each part and the time it took to locate a supplier for each part. I want to see evidence of the postage you paid from China for each part. Document the time it took you to assemble all the parts you received in the mail from scratch. I want a two tone blue dial sub with the m's lined up custom made from parts you yourself have ordered from China and which have been mailed from China directly to your house. Photograph the packages. Nothing can be bought in Brazil at your local market. You have to duplicate what a custom builder in the US has to do. That is my sincere offer. The cost and time involved will add up to whatever they will add up to. Neither you nor I know that total now. Maybe you make money if you are right or maybe you lose money if I am right. We will see. It will be a very interesting project if you meet my conditions. Both of us will learn something. But you have to be fair with me in how you go about doing this. You cannot procure a watch or any parts in Brazil. Each part must be mailed to you directly from China and so documented. Is it a deal?
It is a Nikon D80 digital SLR with 10.2 mega pixels. But you also set it for fine detail or lower (I set it on fine to capture as much detail as possible). I think it has something to do with the software inside the camera also. There may be a setting to go lower that I don't know about. The camera has a lot of options. I really love that camera! By the way, it is now outdated having been replaced by the D90 which has over 12 mega pixels! Amazing!
Hogan. The second paragraph above was in answer to your question. Don't know why it appeared in my post to Spirit. I though I made a separate post to you.
No, you missed my point. You cannot go out and buy one from the market, grease the gaskets and sell it to me. You must order all the parts from China as individual parts and then you must assemble the entire watch yourself. That is "custom building" a watch. Your offer is to just be a middleman. Play fair if you are going to play at all. Don't buy one from the market, disassemble it and reassemble it. That is not what fakemaster does. Document how you found the supplier for each part and the time it took to locate a supplier for each part. I want to see evidence of the postage you paid from China for each part. Document the time it took you to assemble all the parts you received in the mail from scratch. I want a two tone blue dial sub with the m's lined up custom made from parts you yourself have ordered from China and which have been mailed from China directly to your house. Photograph the packages. Nothing can be bought in Brazil at your local market. You have to duplicate what a custom builder in the US has to do. That is my sincere offer. The cost and time involved will add up to whatever they will add up to. Neither you nor I know that total now. Maybe you make money if you are right or maybe you lose money if I am right. We will see. It will be a very interesting project if you meet my conditions. Both of us will learn something. But you have to be fair with me in how you go about doing this. You cannot procure a watch or any parts in Brazil. Each part must be mailed to you directly from China and so documented. Is it a deal?
It is a Nikon D80 digital SLR with 10.2 mega pixels. But you also set it for fine detail or lower (I set it on fine to capture as much detail as possible). I think it has something to do with the software inside the camera also. There may be a setting to go lower that I don't know about. The camera has a lot of options. I really love that camera! By the way, it is now outdated having been replaced by the D90 which has over 12 mega pixels! Amazing!
Hogan. The second paragraph above was in answer to your question. Don't know why it appeared in my post to Spirit. I though I made a separate post to you.
LOL! No, I didn´t miss your point. The point is that the same watch that is "custom made" from china, is ready to buy here in brazil...You are the only one that doesn´t see that, mate.
I´m no supplier, I´m dealer, I´m not a wholesale buyer. But if you want a watch with THOSE parts, CASE, BRACELET, DIAL, and a a21j powering it, I can source it for you here. The metal parts and all on BOTH of them, will be manufactured in the same place, just shipped from different places.
What will be the difference, since BOTH watches are MADE IN CHINA, by factories THERE, and just assembled in different places?
Does that mean that if I buy a Ferrari here in Brazil it isn´t the same car just because it wasn´t bought in Italy? A Porsche quits being a Porsche just because it wasn´t bought in Germany?
.....a CHINESE WATCH, quits being a CHINESE WATCH, because it was shipped from US?
I questioned about the price of a service on a a21j. Are you saying that "this built-in quality" can´t be made with ready to go pieces? What´s the difficult for a watchsmith on disassemble, service and re-assemble a watch like that? If it wasn´t possible, not even fakey would be able to service the watches afterall, as he offers to service watches that wasn´t even sold by him.
Mate, it´s just an overhaul. Fakey already told here AND on the shoutbox that he doesnt manufacture anything, he assembles and services what he gets from China.
Parts can come together, or not :lol: I can get the watch ready to you as you have yours there, for the 120 you offered.
My whole point isn´t in bring anything from China. I started to post to ask you where the 240usd of a service on a 60 watch came from. Since the watch alone, built, and working just fine, costs 60 in the market here.
That´s what a "Brazil custom builder" have to do.
Now, if you want me to understand "what a US custom maker" has to do, let´s extend your challenge to Fakey. Actually, that would kill the questions that have surrounded aaaaallll this discussion about the maths and everything for once.
So,
FAKEY,
"Document how you found the supplier for each part and the time it took to locate a supplier for each part. I want to see evidence of the postage you paid from China for each part. Document the time it took you to assemble all the parts you received in the mail from scratch."
Please, post the evidences of your building, prices and everything here, we would like to know how much of a custom built costs.
Cheers,
Spirit.
Spirit
We are talking about two different things. Leave Fakey out of it. This is just between you and me. We are in the debate, not him, my friend. I understand that you can buy a watch there cheaper. I can buy them cheaper from a Chinese dealer in China also and have them shipped here. And many (or all) of the parts are the same. But can you buy all the parts from China and put them together here for the same price as you can buy the complete watch from China? That and that alone is the issue we are debating. I don't think anyone can do it. I do have a Porsche, made in Germany. Love that car! And I suppose all the parts are available because you have to be able to get them for repairs, don't you? So say I had a favorite mechanic in the US. I like his work and asked him to order all the individual parts from Germany to custom assemble the very same Porsche for me. Would it be the same car? Sure. It would have the same parts. Would all the tolerances be the same? Well, that would depend upon how he assembled it, wouldn't it? He may do a better job or a worse job than the Porsche factory. I'll bet it would cost me a whole lot more than just buying the German built car at the Porsche dealer. How much more? Twice as much? Four times as much? Don't know. We would have to test it, wouldn't we? Can we agree on that point? That is my only point in this debate we are having. Would it be worth it to me? Maybe, maybe not? Do people who I have offered a Chinese built sub and a fakemaster built sub feel they can detect more quality in the fakemaster sub? You bet. I have seen it again and again. Could you get that same quality by purchasing a ready made sub and then have a watchmaker work it over? Don't know, maybe, probably? What would that cost additionally? Don't know, never have tried it. I don't think we really disagree on any these things, do we? I want you to be my friend. It is ok if we disagree. Tell me more about this big rep market you have there and all the things you can get. It sounds really great to be able to go compare many different watches and pick the best. I would love to be able to do that.
We are talking about two different things. Leave Fakey out of it. This is just between you and me. We are in the debate, not him, my friend. I understand that you can buy a watch there cheaper. I can buy them cheaper from a Chinese dealer in China also and have them shipped here. And many (or all) of the parts are the same. But can you buy all the parts from China and put them together here for the same price as you can buy the complete watch from China? That and that alone is the issue we are debating. I don't think anyone can do it. I do have a Porsche, made in Germany. Love that car! And I suppose all the parts are available because you have to be able to get them for repairs, don't you? So say I had a favorite mechanic in the US. I like his work and asked him to order all the individual parts from Germany to custom assemble the very same Porsche for me. Would it be the same car? Sure. It would have the same parts. Would all the tolerances be the same? Well, that would depend upon how he assembled it, wouldn't it? He may do a better job or a worse job than the Porsche factory. I'll bet it would cost me a whole lot more than just buying the German built car at the Porsche dealer. How much more? Twice as much? Four times as much? Don't know. We would have to test it, wouldn't we? Can we agree on that point? That is my only point in this debate we are having. Would it be worth it to me? Maybe, maybe not? Do people who I have offered a Chinese built sub and a fakemaster built sub feel they can detect more quality in the fakemaster sub? You bet. I have seen it again and again. Could you get that same quality by purchasing a ready made sub and then have a watchmaker work it over? Don't know, maybe, probably? What would that cost additionally? Don't know, never have tried it. I don't think we really disagree on any these things, do we? I want you to be my friend. It is ok if we disagree. Tell me more about this big rep market you have there and all the things you can get. It sounds really great to be able to go compare many different watches and pick the best. I would love to be able to do that.
Donald,
I´m not arguing here, I just asked how much an a21j service costs =) That was all.
...I´m talking with Fakey on the msn now, and discussing all the points of this, and I indeed asked him about overhauling and if it was possible on a "ready-to-go" watch. And he surely can do that as I already knew.
So, that means that any watch, ready from the market, or not, can get a quality assembly, being it a question of having it completely reassembled, or just servicing/taking care of it.
My watches are well cared, a21j watches, run smooth for 3yrs (sub) and 5 yrs (DJ) never had any problems with any of them...and at the time I bought them, they costed me the price I mentioned.
Parts are the same my friend...The whole point of this discussion aren´t just the parts, but the cost of a service for a 15usd movement, as I kindly asked to explain me about that. =)
Alright? =) Never hard any hard feelings involved here.
Technical discussion only, over a recognizable structure of a watch, on a oversized awesomely taken picture..
Cheers,
Spirit.
Hogan
Hogan, this second part is for you in case my posts get combined again. I try to do them separately but they seem to get combined. Canon is a great camera; always among the top ranked. Nikon used to be favored by the vast majority of pros some years ago but many pros seemed to switch to Canon in more recent years. The difference between our photos is probably not just the mega pixal count. It is the lens, the software in the camera, the lighting, and the digital image processing after the shoot. I would think the Canon equivalent to the Nikon D80 would produce the same sharp photos after post shoot digital image processing. My guess is that your Canon isn't the model they sell in competition to the Nikon D80.
Hogan, this second part is for you in case my posts get combined again. I try to do them separately but they seem to get combined. Canon is a great camera; always among the top ranked. Nikon used to be favored by the vast majority of pros some years ago but many pros seemed to switch to Canon in more recent years. The difference between our photos is probably not just the mega pixal count. It is the lens, the software in the camera, the lighting, and the digital image processing after the shoot. I would think the Canon equivalent to the Nikon D80 would produce the same sharp photos after post shoot digital image processing. My guess is that your Canon isn't the model they sell in competition to the Nikon D80.
..And about the merging of the posts. The Forum does that automatically if you´re the last one to post. it just merges the posts by the same author, just to avoid spam from malicious members, or double post by any mistake.
Don´t worry about that.
There´s a minimum time between the posts to make them separate, but I don´t know what it´s set to, can´t remember now. Just don´t worry about the merging.
Cheers,
Spirit.
Spirit
Good to hear you have no hard feelings. I don't have the technical skill to take a watch apart and service it. And I don't know of any watchmaker here who would do that for me; so I cannot give you a price for it being done here. There probably are some here but I just don't know of them. Maybe it would cost $100? Maybe more? Certainly, it would cost a whole lot less to have it done in China. Eurotimez claims to do that, I think. Maybe for an extra cost? Haven't check their website in over a year. I suppose it all depends upon the time involved and what the person charges per hour. But as I understand it that is not what Fakey does. He doesn't get completely assembled watches, service them and then ship them out to us. So you have to compare apples to apples when you look at cost structure. That is my point. I don't think Fakey even wants to do that type of service overhaul work. I don't think you, I or anyone could do what Fakey does for $60 a watch. What would be a fair price for you to do exactly what he does? $2oo? Probably, that is my point. Someday maybe I will locate a watchmaker here who is interested in smoothing up a Chinese rep. Then I will take some of my noobmariners in to him and see just how fine a product he can produce and what that additional cost is. It should be a whole lot cheaper than what Fakey does, which is custom assembling the parts himself. But it is also nice and more convenient to just get the smooth watch from Fakemaster in the first place.
Good to hear you have no hard feelings. I don't have the technical skill to take a watch apart and service it. And I don't know of any watchmaker here who would do that for me; so I cannot give you a price for it being done here. There probably are some here but I just don't know of them. Maybe it would cost $100? Maybe more? Certainly, it would cost a whole lot less to have it done in China. Eurotimez claims to do that, I think. Maybe for an extra cost? Haven't check their website in over a year. I suppose it all depends upon the time involved and what the person charges per hour. But as I understand it that is not what Fakey does. He doesn't get completely assembled watches, service them and then ship them out to us. So you have to compare apples to apples when you look at cost structure. That is my point. I don't think Fakey even wants to do that type of service overhaul work. I don't think you, I or anyone could do what Fakey does for $60 a watch. What would be a fair price for you to do exactly what he does? $2oo? Probably, that is my point. Someday maybe I will locate a watchmaker here who is interested in smoothing up a Chinese rep. Then I will take some of my noobmariners in to him and see just how fine a product he can produce and what that additional cost is. It should be a whole lot cheaper than what Fakey does, which is custom assembling the parts himself. But it is also nice and more convenient to just get the smooth watch from Fakemaster in the first place.
Oh yeah I forgot about the noob factory 21j models which did have good dials. Well I tried and tried to find a SS ceramic with the proper dial but could not find one so I ended up getting it anyways. The font on it is blurry and the case is definitely made for the ETA since the dial kind of flops around when setting the time. Would have been cool to get it at that price with the proper dial. Most of the time I don't feel like spending $200 on a watch.
to be frank, your photos are amazing, and photo and real life sometimes do not line up.. yes the aligned m is important in a sub rep.. it makes a lot of difference in the dial and the overall look.
Seconly, fakey will be able to source you a noobmariner dial, it cost around $10-15 from any of our dealers, so not being able to buy a noobdial is a fallacy.
A piece like this can be bought from aoobuy at $52 USD!
http://www.aoobuy.com/RolexSub-06-976
so, i hope you are not paying too much for it
Hey donald, i did ot want to participate in this discussion, but now i want to..
a rolex case set will cost $20USD
a dial + hands $10
DG2813 $6-$9
Total cost $36 USD + shipping which cost nothing if you ship by registered mail.
And those are dealer prices. I suppose Fakey can get better prices than me since he has a bigger volume than what i always order..
So you are try to tell me the assembly of the watch and servicing will cost another $200-$36
Since this is the case... whay not get a slightly better noob model and charge the same price, they all cost the same as parts..
I am no noob to this , i have been to guanzhou, rubbed shoulders with hont, some of my contacts involving some of the biggest players in the replica markets, including a factoy owner.
I can tell you that your comments show a complete lack of understanding of how things work in china.
You can easily source the parts from any dearler, what is so difficult about that?
Alvinado
Great post and great information. Amazing prices. Wish I could order those parts at that price from some website like we can order watches. Lots of great data and stuff I did not know. Wish I could go to GZ. Seems that is the place for reps. I have purchased from Aoobuy and Hont (and used PayPal with EMS mail which about doubles the price by the time I receive the watch in the US). And i have had some quality control issues with all Chinese suppliers. Nice as the people are, it is a hassle to send watches back and forth to China. But I was completely unaware that you can purchase noobfactory dials.
I very much like your prices. Can I purchase parts from you? Will you build complete watches with a freshly cleaned and oiled movement? Can I specify to use a noobdial? What is labor cost per hour where you live? Labor cost may be the biggest factor in Chinese or Asian assembly vs. US assembly.
And most importantly, I understand that genuine new Swiss made ETAs are not available any more. Are there different Chinese or Asian made ETA clones for sale or are they all the same? If there are different ones available, how do I identity the best Asian clone ETA movement and where can I get it? If I can find a local watchmaker to do it I would like to switch out some of my noobfactory DG movements which have not lasted a year. Thanks for your post.
Great post and great information. Amazing prices. Wish I could order those parts at that price from some website like we can order watches. Lots of great data and stuff I did not know. Wish I could go to GZ. Seems that is the place for reps. I have purchased from Aoobuy and Hont (and used PayPal with EMS mail which about doubles the price by the time I receive the watch in the US). And i have had some quality control issues with all Chinese suppliers. Nice as the people are, it is a hassle to send watches back and forth to China. But I was completely unaware that you can purchase noobfactory dials.
I very much like your prices. Can I purchase parts from you? Will you build complete watches with a freshly cleaned and oiled movement? Can I specify to use a noobdial? What is labor cost per hour where you live? Labor cost may be the biggest factor in Chinese or Asian assembly vs. US assembly.
And most importantly, I understand that genuine new Swiss made ETAs are not available any more. Are there different Chinese or Asian made ETA clones for sale or are they all the same? If there are different ones available, how do I identity the best Asian clone ETA movement and where can I get it? If I can find a local watchmaker to do it I would like to switch out some of my noobfactory DG movements which have not lasted a year. Thanks for your post.
- 30/3/08
- 43,943
- 20,343
- 113
Wrong! There will allways be ETA MVTs available. What ETA have greatly reduced the supply of is ebauches. An ebauche is an unfinished MVT minus the balence assembly and possibily other parts as well depending on what you specifiy. At no time have ETA ever said they would stop supply of complete MVTs. Why in heavens name would they?
My suppliers current price for a Swiss ETA 2836-2 is about 78USD depending on exchange rates for a one unit buy. That gets a lot cheaper in steps as you get up to 1000 units where the price is around 45 dollars each.
The best 21Js are the DG and TY series made by Guangzhou Xinxin and the Tianjin Sea-Gull Watch Company. The price in GZ for these is USD9-12. I pay about 23 AUD here for a DG2813.
Col.
geniune swiss eta are still avalible, just go to offrei to check it out.
I very much like your prices. Can I purchase parts from you?
Answer is no, I am not a dealer here.
Will you build complete watches with a freshly cleaned and oiled movement?
Yes! Only for myself.
Back to the topic, I have nothing against fakey or anything like that.. but my point is very simple, if anyone were to service a movement, why not service a Clone ETA movement but a DG2813?
Your sub has solid midlinks, which is always found in the lowerl echelons of the rep world, the canal street version so to speak. there are different grades of cases, and Rolex cases always comes with bracelet. I would always choose a version with hollow midlinks.
Lastly, the parts prices for a single piece of movement is always much more expensive that wholesale, the price I listed are wholesale prices. Fakey is probaly enjoying wholesale prices on parts.
To be frank, in my eyes, no matter how the $60rep is serviced, it is still a $60 rep.
Why don't you put this watch beside a wm9 and bk modded sub and see the difference?
My point here is that fakey build great watches, but there are better ones out of the box, there is a specific market for fakey's watches and a specific one for the high end WM9 .
Simply put, if fakey were to take a noobmariner and service the ETA movement inside, i will be all over it! But the DG2813? it does not make sense to me. You can mod a Toyota, but it will never ever surpass a ferrari, so why not mod the ferrari.
IMO, since there are better models out there, might as well use the noobmariner as a base?
I very much like your prices. Can I purchase parts from you?
Answer is no, I am not a dealer here.
Will you build complete watches with a freshly cleaned and oiled movement?
Yes! Only for myself.
Back to the topic, I have nothing against fakey or anything like that.. but my point is very simple, if anyone were to service a movement, why not service a Clone ETA movement but a DG2813?
Your sub has solid midlinks, which is always found in the lowerl echelons of the rep world, the canal street version so to speak. there are different grades of cases, and Rolex cases always comes with bracelet. I would always choose a version with hollow midlinks.
Lastly, the parts prices for a single piece of movement is always much more expensive that wholesale, the price I listed are wholesale prices. Fakey is probaly enjoying wholesale prices on parts.
To be frank, in my eyes, no matter how the $60rep is serviced, it is still a $60 rep.
Why don't you put this watch beside a wm9 and bk modded sub and see the difference?
My point here is that fakey build great watches, but there are better ones out of the box, there is a specific market for fakey's watches and a specific one for the high end WM9 .
Simply put, if fakey were to take a noobmariner and service the ETA movement inside, i will be all over it! But the DG2813? it does not make sense to me. You can mod a Toyota, but it will never ever surpass a ferrari, so why not mod the ferrari.
IMO, since there are better models out there, might as well use the noobmariner as a base?
Trailboss99 and Alvinado
Good ideas and good info. See my recent posted pictorial of the noobmariner and my comments about swapping out the DG movement for an Asian Clone ETA. Perhaps using a genuine Swiss ETA would be better but I remember warnings on the board to not order genuine ETA's anymore because the only ones available in China are old reused ones. I do know Offrei still lists them for sale but I also know BKLM is collecting money to buy ETA's in advance because he fears they soon will no longer be available.
You guys have skill and experience far superior to mine. I cannot build my own watches and never will be able to do that. [I can take photos though, so I can do what I can do!]. I have to be willing to purchase quality and pay a fair price to someone who is willing to take the time to sweat the details since I cannot do it myself. That is my real point in this discussion of money. If you can do it yourself, do so. If not, be willing to pay a decent amount of money to the person who will do it for you. Don't be a cheapskate. Don't expect the lowest price for the highest quality. We should all be able to agree on that point.
Take my photos for example. I am very happy to see both of you enjoy them. It means a lot to me. Are they "free?" If my time is of no value and if I obtained all my equipment free, then my photos are free. But if my time has any value and if I have to amortize the cost of my equipment then I have to charge for the photos like any professional would have to do. How much would be a fair charge for those photos? Well, it took me about a full week's time to produce them and post them for RWI members. Should that be at a cost of $10 an hour or at a cost of $100 an hour or $1,000 an hour? Should there be a premium paid for quality and artistic value? I think so, others may disagree.
Good ideas and good info. See my recent posted pictorial of the noobmariner and my comments about swapping out the DG movement for an Asian Clone ETA. Perhaps using a genuine Swiss ETA would be better but I remember warnings on the board to not order genuine ETA's anymore because the only ones available in China are old reused ones. I do know Offrei still lists them for sale but I also know BKLM is collecting money to buy ETA's in advance because he fears they soon will no longer be available.
You guys have skill and experience far superior to mine. I cannot build my own watches and never will be able to do that. [I can take photos though, so I can do what I can do!]. I have to be willing to purchase quality and pay a fair price to someone who is willing to take the time to sweat the details since I cannot do it myself. That is my real point in this discussion of money. If you can do it yourself, do so. If not, be willing to pay a decent amount of money to the person who will do it for you. Don't be a cheapskate. Don't expect the lowest price for the highest quality. We should all be able to agree on that point.
Take my photos for example. I am very happy to see both of you enjoy them. It means a lot to me. Are they "free?" If my time is of no value and if I obtained all my equipment free, then my photos are free. But if my time has any value and if I have to amortize the cost of my equipment then I have to charge for the photos like any professional would have to do. How much would be a fair charge for those photos? Well, it took me about a full week's time to produce them and post them for RWI members. Should that be at a cost of $10 an hour or at a cost of $100 an hour or $1,000 an hour? Should there be a premium paid for quality and artistic value? I think so, others may disagree.