TT Blue Dial Sub by Fakemaster

[donaldejose]

This is my two tone blue dial sub custom built for me by Fakemaster. I think you will agree it is a striking watch. By the way, I am improving my dust control for macro shots!

Now I see I didn't have the pearl lined up quite right. Seems like there is always something I see I missed when I look at those blow-ups!

 

[pcsam]

nice shots mate .and an great watch from the master ......:sam:

 

[amptor]

I had one once with the gold date wheel but the m's lined up on the dial, it was ETA..and it also did have the end links and mid links not plated on the sides like this one. hmm solid midlinks on a sub? haven't seen that in many years.

 

[trailboss99]

Shame about the dial, the Ms don't line up.


Col.

 

[amptor]

trailboss, I don't think u can buy a 21j with ms that line up. I think it is intentional for you to splurge more money on an ETA copy advertised as swiss eta...

 

[Spirit]

trailboss, I don't think u can buy a 21j with ms that line up. I think it is intentional for you to splurge more money on an ETA copy advertised as swiss eta...

Oh you definitely can.

Mine aren´t perfectly lined, but are definitely way better. And just FYI, mine is an a21j. If I would name all the flaws on this watch, there would be a list. But the OP has stated that this was made not to be a "replica". It´s just a fake.

Here are some GENs for comparison:

Cheers,
Spirit.

 

[donaldejose]

Trailboss99 and Spirit

You are correct the m's don't line up.

The so-called "noobfactory" dial m's do line up; one of the reasons people call it the "most perfect dial to date." Don't know about WM9 TT dials.

It would be great if Fakemaster could use gen dials, or noob dials, or WM9 dials (if they line up) but he cannot. Noobfactory and WM9 won't sell dials as parts. Gen dials would be too expensive. However, if you wanted to pay the price and FM could get a gen dial he may well be willing to build one for you with that dial in it. He is a custom builder.

I have worn this watch many times and no-one sitting across the table from me has ever said "too bad the m's don't line up." Even when I hand the watch to people not one has ever said that. In fact, I have given many subs away to friends and always let them choose between a noobmariiner and a Fakemaster. I show them all the "tells," including the m's. 100% of the time they choose the Fakemaster over the noobmariner because they could recognize its increased quality construction and they knew that no one is going to ever even recognize the "tells" must less call them out on them. Sometimes they even laugh at me when I show them the "tells" and say: "like anyone will ever even know that!"

These experiences have moved me from the "perfect counterfeiter camp" to the "art and beauty camp." The so called "tells" are interesting for us "watch nerds" to know about but really they are irrelevant to over 95% of the people over 95% of the time.

So my question to Trailboss99 and Spirit is this? Would you agree this is a beautiful watch and that more than 90% of ordinary people will not realize it is a rep?

 

[Spirit]

In fact, I have given many subs away to friends and always let them choose between a noobmariiner and a Fakemaster. I show them all the "tells," including the m's. 100% of the time they choose the Fakemaster over the noobmariner because they could recognize its increased quality construction and they knew that no one is going to ever even recognize the "tells" must less call them out on them. Sometimes they even laugh at me when I show them the "tells" and say: "like anyone will ever even know that!"

I´m curious to know what the increased quality construction is. I know fakey might service the a21j movements, but other than that it´s just a usual case, bracelet and etc. and Movement service is not visible at all.
It all depends on what batch of parts you get your hands on, actually. Being it ETA or a21j, unless you have a steel factory at home, you will be getting what the factories build and send overseas, which means: If you are able to find parts that are well build, you´re ok to go, if not, it´s just the standard parts you find everywhere.
...You can imediatelly spot it on the clasp and CGs. If you´re familiar with the overall quality of the rep factories - as I think you do - you know the "squared" clasp indent is a feature of cheap watches.

These experiences have moved me from the "perfect counterfeiter camp" to the "art and beauty camp." The so called "tells" are interesting for us "watch nerds" to know about but really they are irrelevant to over 95% of the people over 95% of the time.

So my question to Trailboss99 and Spirit is this? Would you agree this is a beautiful watch and that more than 90% of ordinary people will not realize it is a rep?

To really answer your question. Yeah, I agree that more than 90% of the ordinary people won´t realize it´s a rep nor point out the flaws, but you gotta agree with me on one thing: You will get it on any US$60 watch you buy.

I know it´s a beautiful watch, I own a TT Sub, and mine was US$60 at that time I bought it here, you have seen the pics of it, it has a bullet proof a21j movement, and the M´s on the dial of mine lines up just as the WM9 do. It was my first submariner ever bought, and works like a charm for 3 years already.
Are we - me and I - happy with our watches? Yeah, I surely believe so. Only difference is that I wouldn´t pay more than what I paid for mine, which is what the watch actually costs, and you paid for the servicing of an a21j movement over the actual watch cost.

But it´s a matter of personal choice...as, for example, people pay US$625 for WM9 v3 Subs. But I´m ok to spend US$15 and buy a brand new a21j and slap it in, when/if mine fails. (Yours is powered by the same movement as mine, I guess.)

Don´t you agree?


...But your pics are indeed lovely! I really like them.
They´re crisp and colorful, and you have a nice perception to mount scenes for the watches. That´s where the "art and beauty" really is. On the picture. Congrats!

Cheers,
Spirit.

 

[Spirit]

.......But the OP has stated that this was made not to be a "replica". It´s just a fake..

Just to make it bold..
...I know there are 2 kinds of "replicas": One that is really meant to be a replica, where the flaws try to be kept at a minimum. And others that "mimic" but don´t care for the flaws.

I try to minimize the flaws on my watches modding them, that´s a personal pleasure of mine. That´s what I find beautiful on our hobby. See it as a plastic modelism/diecast hobby.
You get the kits, and do it all by yourself, painting, modding, adding your touch to the little car.

That´s where the CG trimming, insert modding, pearl changing go. The search for a better clasp, a bracelet with gen-features....whatever.

...I don´t want to demerit anybody here, mate. I´m just making my point, as you asked me to

Cheers,
Spirit.

 

[donaldejose]

Spirit

We are not in disagreement. I don't want to mod and see it as unnecessary. You do and enjoy it. Both are valid positions; just different aspects of the same hobby and each position should be respected.

The obvious quality difference on a Fakemaster build has to be more felt than observed. The feeling of how the watch operates (how smooth the bezel turns, how smooth the watch winds, etc) cannot be portrayed in photographs. Fakemasters 21J movement feels smoother and of higher quality than the ETAs I have. The ETAs wind much harder than his. Time after time when I give people a choice they choose the Fakemaster because they feel it is a higher quality watch. Like many things you have to hold one in each hand, operate each of them and then you can compare them side by side.

 

[Spirit]

Yeah, as I said, it´s each one personal choice.

...now just out of my curiosity, how much did you pay for a service on the a21j?
I have a21j and CloneETAs here, I have ETAs way smoother than a21j´s, and also have a21j´s as smooth or better than ETAs. So I just got wondering how much a service on a a21j costs for you?

Wear them well, mate!
...Attitude when handling the watch matters too, specially for the untrained eye. I know that..There are stores nearby here, and I´m able to see thousands of watches side by side, and check them on my hand. I see how different people how stand nearby act with the watches they´re seeing/looking to buy too. =)

Wear your watches in good health, mate!


Cheers,
Spirit.

 

[fakemaster]

Let me take a moment to express my appreciation for Don and share a few thoughts. I've been there and done that with everything from CG shaving to gen parts. But after 20+ years my perspective has changed. At this point my tennet is to do what I want. I am not looking to please anyone. And I have taken the time to learn what I needed in order to accompish that. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes in order to make something come together. Like Spirit said. Unless you have a smelting factory you can only work with what is out there. That's what I do. I use the movements I want to use. Same goes for dials. I can get them with M's that line up. I have actually done a few with them. But there are quality issues I have discovered that affects the final product. If that changes in the future I will use them, Until then I choose not to. I choose to use solid midlinks because I think hollow ones suck. But unfortunately I have to deal with the clasps that come with those bracelets. It's a tradeoff I am ok with. Spirit and I have talked on many occasions and he knows I am always looking for different clasp options. I don't care about wrapping because it is not important to me. And it is an added cost that I feel is not necessary. I use SELs and non. Why? Well you can't see them first off. And parts are made to very poor tolerances so they don't always want to play together. Since I am more concerned things don't fly apart I will use whatever is the most secure. I sand, texture, rouge and buff every piece. I've even gone as far as polishing the dial markers. These are the things Don is referring to. Ultimately perfection is impossible. No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. I want everything to be as good as it can be within the parameters of what I have to work with, And I stress over it to the point that my hair falls out. But resultantly I do sell myself short and stuff ends up in the bin that shouldn't be there.

As I said they are what they are. But they are what I want them to be at this point. Some will like it some will not. Some will never get it. Some rip things just because. Don has been my product tester. When I get an idea or make changes he gets the first look. And his real world experiences have been very valuable. His perspective and input have helped me get a better idea of the directions I want to go and I thank him for taking the time to do it. So I say appreciate the pictorial in the spirit which it was meant.

 

[Spirit]

I know about all of this, Fakey, as we´ve talked on msn as you mentioned.

...What blew me away, were these posts on other of donald´s threads:

Less than it was worth! I suggest you contact him directly and offer him $200 if he would order the parts custom for you and build one for you. You will find it well worth that price.

==========

Yes, $200 is a great price for the watch; as I am sure you can see from the photos. Fakemaster is a custom builder. I have a number of watches made by him and wouldn't sell any of them for less than $300.00. If he has the time and inclination to help you, you can get a better deal than my price of $300.00 by asking him to custom build one for you. That is why I suggested offering $200 and see what he says. Send him a pm.

I mean, if you get the parts YOU want to work with, and builds it with parts that you can have at hands at the moment, then it´s a serviced a21j, with parts of a 60usd watch, am I right?

So...240usd is the price alone for the service and building over an a21j?

As I said on my previous posts here, I don´t want to demerit your work, but I got quite amazed by this 'math'.
I would really appreciate to have this question clarified in my mind, and I´m gonna talk to you on msn also about this later on.

Cheers,
Spirit.

 

[donaldejose]

Spirit and Fakemaster

Spirit: The 21J service/tune up was not an after market purchase. They come that way from the Fakemaster factory. Part of his basic quality built in.

Fakemaster: Very good post. Be yourself and do whatever you want to do. That is how creative artists have to work. Those who can appreciate it will. For most artists appreciation seems to occur after they die, hope it won't for you. For example, I understand Van Gough sold only one painting during his lifetime. How sad for him. I have about 10 of his paintings (reps not gens!) in my house and they cheer me up. Now the originals sell for tens of millions each, if you can even find one for sale. But I love my reps and they cheer me up just as much as a gen would.

 

[Spirit]

Spirit: The 21J service/tune up was not an after market purchase. They come that way from the Fakemaster factory. Part of his basic quality built in.

Factory is not the most appropriate word, as Fakey himself posted. He gets what his hands can be on, and work over that.
...Unless fakey is manufacturing a21j movements in-house and I don´t know about that. So, the a21j gets in ready from a factory, gets disassembled, serviced, and then assembled again.

But you didn´t get my question here, mate... What I want to know is does the service costs 240 alone on this price? Because the parts are US$60.
Built-in or not, it´s the same a21j that runs my watch, Help me to understand that math of yours.

An overhaul can be well done, being it built-in or not. As I said alot of times, I´m not demeriting Fakey´s work, but you shouldn´t demerit any other watchsmith overhaul too, is that correct?

Cheers,
Spirit.

 

[donaldejose]

Spirit

The error in your math is the difference between the cost and quality of labor and parts in a Chinese sweat shop factory and the cost and quality of labor and parts by a US custom builder. Fakemaster doesn't buy 50,000 dials, and every other part, at a great discount and have a hoard of barely trained lackeys assembling them for pennies an hour. An example could be housing. Compare an assembly line trailer with a custom stick built house. Yes, they use the same pine 2 x 4s. Yes, they use the same nails. Etc. They both work to keep us out of the rain and cold. But the options available and the quality of the end product are quite different. Custom built by a quality builder simply cost far more. Always does. Always will. Some people will pay for that custom quality and others won't. Each is a reasonable choice. Another example is two posts Fakemaster did about issues he found with "noobmariners." It may well be the m's lined up on those dials but the quality of the watch and the quality control by the factory was not good. So your math is comparing apples to oranges. However, if you live near some mass replica market you are fortunate because you can go there an look through 100 of a certain kind of watch to find the good one. Most of us don't have that option.

 

[fakemaster]

You know a decent case set can cost more than $60 alone. I thnk you are misinterpreting Dons apparent enthusiasm. I have never asked that much for anything. I actullat have had people offer me more than that and I have refused to take it. Not that there would be anything wrong with it. Just not my style.

 

[donaldejose]

Spirit

You are correct about my use of the word factory. I should have put quotes around the phrase "Fakemaster Factory." I meant it as a reference to the fact that I did not do an extra cost after market service on the movement. Perhaps to use a car analogy, it was included in the base price; not even an extra cost option or dealer add-on or after market tune up. Perhaps that would have been a better way to state it. I did not mean to confuse you. As I have always said, he is a custom builder; not the type of factory you have in China. Such a comparison is faulty.

All i can say about price is that if you are happy with a $60 watch then be happy and don't spend more. That is fine. Don't pay for something you don't need. No one is arguing with that. Also, you seem to be in Brazil. The market there may be very different than it is here in the US or in Europe. I don't know of any place in the US where I can go and sift through hundreds of replicas. You are most fortunate to be able to do so. As far as I know there are no good $60 reps in the US.

 

[Spirit]

The error in your math is the difference between the cost and quality of labor and parts in a Chinese sweat shop factory and the cost and quality of labor and parts by a US custom builder. Fakemaster doesn't buy 50,000 dials, and every other part, at a great discount and have a hoard of barely trained lackeys assembling them for pennies an hour.

What I really wanted to state on my point of view, Donald, is that Fakey buys his parts from china too, if you don´t know.

...My math follows this: Melting factories in China, manufacture the cases, and all the other parts, then send them to sweatshops whose get their a21j from other factories, and assemble the watches, which cost , than 10 dollars wholesale, considering all the currency variation and all, and them sell the watches for alot more elsewhere around the world.

So, Fakey, correct if I´m wrong please, but you don´t use any "US Based manufactured cases", do you? SO...on that line of thought, the process is this:
- Melting factories in China, manufacture the cases, and all other parts, then send them to sweatshops whose get their parts. This is where Fakey gets in, he buys from - factories or sweatshops, I don´t know his contacts - and then gets a21j from other factories, and them the watches together.

All in All, it´s chinese products what we´re talking about, Donald.

...And Fakey, yes, I know a good case can cost more than 60usd, for sure it can cost that. But c´mon, speak to me, man! Do you buy your cases from Ofrei? Yuki?
I guess your services are well done, no doubt on that, But I think Donald is misleading a bit with this idea.

DonaldJose, the watches we buy in Brazil are the same that you bought in China, USA, Europe, or whatever you are located. The difference is the person who sells it to you.
Here, the stores are held by chineses, who bring their stuff directly from China. So, you gotta agree with me that if they sold watches for 60usd, they still gotta profit from it, meaning that any watch is still way cheaper than that.
...There´s no free lunch, I know about that, but be sure that the watches are all the same everywhere. They come from the same places, they´re made by the same people, and these are the Chinese.

Just don´t tell me that you believe on the "Made in Italy" reps :biglaugh:

I told a million times on my posts, and I´ll say it again. With all respect to Fakey, and not wanting to demerit his work in any way, but you are misleading the facts here a bit, Don.

Cheers,
Spirit.

 

[donaldejose]

Spirit

We could debate the issue forever. I understand your point of view but I suggest this practical test. Order all the parts you need from China to assemble one watch and see if you can do it for the same $60 you can buy a watch for in your local market. I would be amazed if you can do it. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you can do it. Keep track of your costs and your time and post here total costs of the parts plus total time spent obtaining parts and total time assembling the watch. Pay yourself $10 an hour (or even $5 an hour if you feel that is all your time is worth). Then we will all know the "true" cost of custom building a watch. No need to debate the issue. The facts themselves will settle the issue. There will be no "my math vs. your math" issue; only the real factual math. It will add up to whatever it adds up to. I would be surprised if you could do it for less than $200. I will offer you $120 for that watch you custom build (assuming it runs). Fair enough? I hereby offer twice the price you think you can do it for.