Same here, to a large extent. And even some of my steel ones that are reps of platinum or white gold gens, I'm careful with. But then it's not a bad habit to get into! Enjoy your golds!
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"The "Wrapped" Gold Sub Guide"
- Thread starter Parabuteo
- Start date
Same here, to a large extent. And even some of my steel ones that are reps of platinum or white gold gens, I'm careful with. But then it's not a bad habit to get into! Enjoy your golds!
Definitely didn't think you were trying to put anyone off, by the way. I think your enthusiasm is apparent. But I know I've certainly had people try and talk me out of gold plated reps before, and that a large percentage of rep wearers wouldn't wear them. I think it's a shame that anyone considering one might be disuaded by others, though it's wise to know the pitfalls.
- 26/6/13
- 2,249
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For anyone on the fence about a gold rep I say just go for it and try it out!
Worst case you can just flip it and sell
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Worst case you can just flip it and sell
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
OK...Since I posted this I have been involved in a sort of crusade/obsession to get to the bottom of what exactly a "gold wrapping" consists of nowadays.
In the initial post I opined:
Instead what I suspect (but don't ask me to prove it) is the term 'Wrapped" in most cases currently refers to mostly really heavy electroplate OR possibly in some cases a actual layer on top of a copper or other base metal that while it may contain some gold is nowhere near pure enough to meet the standard of typical gold. A modern "pinchbeck" or "dutch gold" type mix if you will, layered on to look like it is gold filled but containing a mix of lesser metals along with the minimal gold needed to achieve the hopefully 18k look.
I think I can now confirm my suspicions, thanks to member @Gonza328's kindly agreeing to sell me a single "wrapped" gold link from a new noob 116613 TT. I have thoroughly analyzed it (translation: spent a enjoyable AM tearing it apart with my dremel and a vise and then taking the remnants to a couple of local gold buyers for a quick assay) and can now give the results (which surprised even me a little bit)....
THERE IS NO GOLD AT ALL IN A CURRENT NOOB "WRAPPED" SUB.
Here are pics and my takeaways from this exercise:
First here are pics of my plated 116618 BP and the 116613 Noob "wrapped", for color/tone comparison. The TT has a very slightly lighter tone, more like 14k than 18k. You can see the wrapping vs plating clearly from the side shot of the links.
View attachment 76872 View attachment 76871
And here are pics of dismantling of the link and stripping the wrapping:
View attachment 76873 View attachment 76874 View attachment 76875
Something to note here that raised my suspicions/validated my scepticism- there was tarnish/ discoloration on the inside of the wrapping and also when I opened it up to view the inner side it snapped in half, it was extremely brittle which is completely out of character for malleable 18k or even lower karat gold.
View attachment 76876
Calipers tell me it is roughly 200 microns...about 1/5 of a MM...thick.
View attachment 76877
The most telling thing, the weight. It weighed out at .60 gm vs 1.30 gm for a closely dimensionally equalivent 18k pendant.....View attachment 76878View attachment 76880View attachment 76879
By this time I was reasonably certain it was not even close to being 18k gold, but I did think it was possible there was some gold content, maybe a super low karatage like 7K or something with a bunch of other alloys in there. So- off to the gold buyers for a preliminary evaluation.
The results were pretty eye opening...let me preface by saying I was more than ready to pay for a professional assay if there had been any karat at all noted by the two places I went to. Turns out it would just be a waste to do it, the first local gold buyer tested it with nitric acid -and then just for kicks (and because I knew him and kinda begged) electronically tested it. Both were completely negative. The results were the same at the second place, and in addition upon my pressing them as to what metal/alloy they thought it might possibly be, gave the opinion since it was not magnetic it was a likely an aluminum bronze composite meant to mimic gold.
At that point I figured it was time to call it - and rein in my ambitions of having some kind of professional assay certificate to point to, it just seems pointless now.
I have mixed feelings about the results of all this. On the one hand it validates my suspicions as to what this whole "gold wrapped" thing is about. On the other hand it opens a can of worms, since these Reps are being presented and sold as pricy alternatives to plated models, supposedly with actual gold content...
I personally don't find it surprising and I'm sure many members won't either, after all, how incensed can you get?
"Hey! I am expecting REAL gold not phony gold on my phony watch!" The manufacturers are in the replica business are they not? We all know most of the advertising (1:1! Waterproof to 50m! Gen Swiss!) is baloney...so why would the "18k gold wrapped" claim be any different?
That said, the value to price ratio of a "wrapped" "gold" watch seems very very discouraging. I can see where there might be minor advantages like the wrapping is so much thicker than plating it will take a very deep scratch to show the base metal, and you could polish out things you could not with a plated watch, but the whole premise of more genuine gold color/value of actual gold content/tarnish resistance goes out the window.
I should also say, this was a single link from a Noob TT and it is possible that BP or another maker might yield a different result. I am out of faith on that one right now though.
I do still think in the past certain makers (TW Best, Sean, WM9, et al) were likely using at least some actual gold, past posters have said such watches passed the scratch test at least that this one failed, so there's that..
Again- this is not meant to dissuade anyone who wants a "wrapped" Sub from buying it, just to educate as to what can be realistically expected currently.
Hope members find this informative and feel free to hold forth with any thoughts pro or con!
In the initial post I opined:
Instead what I suspect (but don't ask me to prove it) is the term 'Wrapped" in most cases currently refers to mostly really heavy electroplate OR possibly in some cases a actual layer on top of a copper or other base metal that while it may contain some gold is nowhere near pure enough to meet the standard of typical gold. A modern "pinchbeck" or "dutch gold" type mix if you will, layered on to look like it is gold filled but containing a mix of lesser metals along with the minimal gold needed to achieve the hopefully 18k look.
I think I can now confirm my suspicions, thanks to member @Gonza328's kindly agreeing to sell me a single "wrapped" gold link from a new noob 116613 TT. I have thoroughly analyzed it (translation: spent a enjoyable AM tearing it apart with my dremel and a vise and then taking the remnants to a couple of local gold buyers for a quick assay) and can now give the results (which surprised even me a little bit)....
THERE IS NO GOLD AT ALL IN A CURRENT NOOB "WRAPPED" SUB.
Here are pics and my takeaways from this exercise:
First here are pics of my plated 116618 BP and the 116613 Noob "wrapped", for color/tone comparison. The TT has a very slightly lighter tone, more like 14k than 18k. You can see the wrapping vs plating clearly from the side shot of the links.
View attachment 76872 View attachment 76871
And here are pics of dismantling of the link and stripping the wrapping:
View attachment 76873 View attachment 76874 View attachment 76875
Something to note here that raised my suspicions/validated my scepticism- there was tarnish/ discoloration on the inside of the wrapping and also when I opened it up to view the inner side it snapped in half, it was extremely brittle which is completely out of character for malleable 18k or even lower karat gold.
View attachment 76876
Calipers tell me it is roughly 200 microns...about 1/5 of a MM...thick.
View attachment 76877
The most telling thing, the weight. It weighed out at .60 gm vs 1.30 gm for a closely dimensionally equalivent 18k pendant.....View attachment 76878View attachment 76880View attachment 76879
By this time I was reasonably certain it was not even close to being 18k gold, but I did think it was possible there was some gold content, maybe a super low karatage like 7K or something with a bunch of other alloys in there. So- off to the gold buyers for a preliminary evaluation.
The results were pretty eye opening...let me preface by saying I was more than ready to pay for a professional assay if there had been any karat at all noted by the two places I went to. Turns out it would just be a waste to do it, the first local gold buyer tested it with nitric acid -and then just for kicks (and because I knew him and kinda begged) electronically tested it. Both were completely negative. The results were the same at the second place, and in addition upon my pressing them as to what metal/alloy they thought it might possibly be, gave the opinion since it was not magnetic it was a likely an aluminum bronze composite meant to mimic gold.
At that point I figured it was time to call it - and rein in my ambitions of having some kind of professional assay certificate to point to, it just seems pointless now.
I have mixed feelings about the results of all this. On the one hand it validates my suspicions as to what this whole "gold wrapped" thing is about. On the other hand it opens a can of worms, since these Reps are being presented and sold as pricy alternatives to plated models, supposedly with actual gold content...
I personally don't find it surprising and I'm sure many members won't either, after all, how incensed can you get?
"Hey! I am expecting REAL gold not phony gold on my phony watch!" The manufacturers are in the replica business are they not? We all know most of the advertising (1:1! Waterproof to 50m! Gen Swiss!) is baloney...so why would the "18k gold wrapped" claim be any different?
That said, the value to price ratio of a "wrapped" "gold" watch seems very very discouraging. I can see where there might be minor advantages like the wrapping is so much thicker than plating it will take a very deep scratch to show the base metal, and you could polish out things you could not with a plated watch, but the whole premise of more genuine gold color/value of actual gold content/tarnish resistance goes out the window.
I should also say, this was a single link from a Noob TT and it is possible that BP or another maker might yield a different result. I am out of faith on that one right now though.
I do still think in the past certain makers (TW Best, Sean, WM9, et al) were likely using at least some actual gold, past posters have said such watches passed the scratch test at least that this one failed, so there's that..
Again- this is not meant to dissuade anyone who wants a "wrapped" Sub from buying it, just to educate as to what can be realistically expected currently.
Hope members find this informative and feel free to hold forth with any thoughts pro or con!
great post op, a little disheartening but it’s more info that we can all use.
now... where my gold-wrapped APs at?!
now... where my gold-wrapped APs at?!
WatchestoPlay
Timelord
- 12/8/16
- 1,807
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- 48
Great information. Thanks for doing the research on this, And yeah that's kind of a bummer that there's no gold but I think it was really optimistic to think there actually was any in the first place.
Fantastic research @Parabuteo
So the 'wrapped' link was just a yellow metal meant to mimic gold. That's pretty cheeky. Would it be a good idea to have gold plating on an aluminium bronze base so the scratches didn't show so badly?
So the 'wrapped' link was just a yellow metal meant to mimic gold. That's pretty cheeky. Would it be a good idea to have gold plating on an aluminium bronze base so the scratches didn't show so badly?
To tell the truth I am not sure if plating would adhere to that particular base...I know gold is usually plated over copper/nickel or silver but that could be an option...
I could not see any obvious plating to the "wrapped" metal layer, it looked same color pretty much all the way through, but that does not mean a flash top layer was not there.
Interesting reading: https://www.finishing.com/375/26.shtml
Seems mimicking gold is a hot topic LOL!
I find this absolutely hilarious. Those pesky rep makers are at it again. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!! Jinkies!
- 26/6/13
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Excellent research and well done!
Very unfortunate to hear though not surprising. Now we need to have a BP wrapped link tested to compare!
I've said it before and I will say it again, weather there is real gold used or not there is a very noticeable color and texture difference between "wrapped" and plated versions of the same watch especially if it's the full gold version (BP)
Therefore the main reason for considering to buy one of these should be for the more accurate texture and gold color alone not weather it's really wrapped with gold.
I know that sucks to hear because of the high prices for these watches but it's true. It's just a premium that you have to be willing to pay.
In the good old days of TW Best they really did use 18k "tripple" wrap but gold was also a hell of a lot cheaper back then as well. The whole process back then may have been done completely different then what is known as "wrapping" today.
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Very unfortunate to hear though not surprising. Now we need to have a BP wrapped link tested to compare!
I've said it before and I will say it again, weather there is real gold used or not there is a very noticeable color and texture difference between "wrapped" and plated versions of the same watch especially if it's the full gold version (BP)
Therefore the main reason for considering to buy one of these should be for the more accurate texture and gold color alone not weather it's really wrapped with gold.
I know that sucks to hear because of the high prices for these watches but it's true. It's just a premium that you have to be willing to pay.
In the good old days of TW Best they really did use 18k "tripple" wrap but gold was also a hell of a lot cheaper back then as well. The whole process back then may have been done completely different then what is known as "wrapping" today.
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As far as I know there is a member here who can test metal for its content. i think it was @andrei01
Maybe you can send him that small piece you broke off and he can test it. Would be cool to know what they are actually using, but im really let down its not actually gold as the TD's all say "real 18k gold plated"
Maybe you can send him that small piece you broke off and he can test it. Would be cool to know what they are actually using, but im really let down its not actually gold as the TD's all say "real 18k gold plated"
Not a bad idea. I will PM him see if he is interested in doing it. I too would like to know the exact makeup of the metal....
Wow. Honored! Thanks much.
You will excuse me while I go deal with the Asian hitman that just showed up at my door...:adoration:
