The Right To Bear Arms

[i_like_shiney_things]

Hello all... before I start this thread please note that I am asking this question out of genuine curiosity regarding the opinions of people living in America, and of those outside of America with opinions.
In no way am I trying to offend or insult!

Since I don't often get a chance to communicate with large groups of Americans I'm interested in hearing your views on Americas gun laws... do you think that they are sensible, do they need to be stricter, do they need to be more relaxed etc etc.

Mass shootings are undeniably on the rise in America, particularly over the last five years or so, and whilst they get a huge amount of publicity it is worth noting that they amount for less than 1% of criminal gun fatalities in America.

Below is a list of the mass shootings just over the last two years. When you compare this to countries with very strict gun control laws, examples Britain had 44 gun related homicides from 2011 to 2013 which equates to 0.72 gun related homicides per 1,000,000 people... by contrast America had 9,203 gun related homicides in 2009 alone equating to 40 gun related homicides per 1,000,000 people. (I've included the figures by per 1,000,000 people so we can skip the arguments of America is much bigger so of course there are more murders... these figures are not based on total population but ratios).

So Britain (just a random example of a country with strict gun laws):
0.72 gun related homicides per MILLION people
America:
40 gun related homicides per MILLION people

Again... please don't see this as an attack on your constitution or your country, I am just genuinely interested in hearing peoples opinions

 

[i_like_shiney_things]

Forgot to post the list sorry....

Sept. 16, 2013 -- Washington -- At least 12 dead (including gunman)
A man identified as Aaron Alexis, 34, opened fire at the Navy Yard on Monday, gunning down at least 12 before being killed by authorities.
Obama addressed the incident in a live address later in the day.
"So we are confronting yet another mass shooting and today it happened on a military installation in our nation's capital," he said.
Speaking of the victims, he added: "These are men and women who were going to work, doing their job, protecting all of us. They are patriots and they know the dangers of serving abroad, but today they faced unimaginable violence that they wouldn’t have expected here at home."
July 26, 2013 -- Hialeah, Fla. -- 7 dead (including gunman)
Shooter Pedro Vargas killed six neighbors in a rampage after setting fire to his apartment complex. He was later shot and killed by police.
(No public comments from the president.)
June 7, 2013 -- Santa Monica, Calif. -- 6 dead (including gunman)
Shooter John Zawahri killed his father and brother before going on a shooting spree on and around the campus of Santa Monica College that claimed the lives of four more and injured others.
(No public comments from the president, though he was in the area for a fundraiser.)
April 24, 2013 -- Manchester, Ill. -- 5 dead
A shooter rocked the small town of Manchester when he killed five, including two children, at a federal housing complex. The gunman later died of gunshot wounds sustained during a shootout with police.
(No public comments from the president.)
April 21, 2013 -- Federal Way, Wash. -- 5 dead (including gunman)
After shooting and killing his girlfriend, a gunman gunned down three more neighbors in an apparent attempt to eliminate all witnesses. He was later killed by police.
(No public comments from the president.)
March 13, 2013 -- Herkimer County, N.Y. -- 5 dead (including gunman), one FBI K-9 dead
Kurt Myers, 64, shot six people, killing four, before holing up in an abandoned building. He later killed an FBI K-9 officer during a shootout in which he was eventually killed.
Dec. 14, 2012 -- Newtown, Conn. -- 27 dead (including gunman)
The shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary was the second-deadliest school shooting in U.S. history, leaving 27 dead -- including 20 young children.
President Obama gave an emotional address, calling for "meaningful action":

As a country we have been through this too many times. Whether it is an elementary school in Newtown, or a shopping mall in Oregon, or a temple in Wisconsin, or a movie theater in Aurora, or a street corner in Chicago -- these neighborhoods are our neighborhoods, and these children are our children. We're going to have to come together to meaningful action on this, regardless of the politics.​

Sept. 27, 2012 -- Minneapolis, Minn. -- 7 dead (including gunman), 2 injured
Andrew John Engeldinger, a recently laid off employee of Accent Signage Systems, entered the office building and opened fire.
(No public comments from the president.)
Aug. 5, 2012 -- Oak Creek, Wis. -- 7 dead (including gunman), 4 injured
White supremacist Wade Michael Page entered a Sikh Temple, opening fire on congregants. He later shot and injured a police officer responding to the scene.
Presidential reaction:

Michelle and I were deeply saddened to learn of the shooting that tragically took so many lives in Wisconsin. At this difficult time, the people of Oak Creek must know that the American people have them in our thoughts and prayers, and our hearts go out to the families and friends of those who were killed and wounded.

My Administration will provide whatever support is necessary to the officials who are responding to this tragic shooting and moving forward with an investigation. As we mourn this loss which took place at a house of worship, we are reminded how much our country has been enriched by Sikhs, who are a part of our broader American family.​

July 20, 2012 -- Aurora, Colo. -- 12 dead, 59 injured
During a midnight screening of "The Dark Knight Rises," a gunman opened fire on the suburban Denver movie theater, killing 12 and injuring dozens of others.
Two days later, Obama delivered a ten-minute speech from the University of Colorado that made no mention of gun control:

God bless all who helped to respond to this tragedy. And I hope that over the next several days, next several weeks, and next several months, we all reflect on how we can do something about some of the senseless violence that ends up marring this country, but also reflect on all the wonderful people who make this the greatest country on Earth.​

May 31, 2012 -- Seattle, Wash. -- 6 dead (including gunman)
A man opened fire in a cafe, fatally wounding four people, then killed another in a carjacking before killing himself.
(No public comments from the president.)
April 2, 2012 -- Oakland, Calif. -- 7 dead
A former student of Oikos University, a Korean college, entered a building on the campus and shot repeatedly at random targets.
(No public comments from the president)
Feb. 22, 2012 -- Norcross, Ga. -- 5 dead (including gunman)
A man shot and killed two of his sisters and their husbands and then himself in a Korean health spa.
(No public comments from the president.)

 

[trailboss99]

Sorry, this is a topic for Off Topic, not The Gun Safe. Moved.

 

[Luthier]

Cars kill way much more in US, than guns. Nobody scream "Ban the cars!!!"
Guns don't kill people. Psychos with guns kill people. The most idiotic thing in our gun laws is - there's no restrictions for psychos to buy the gun. Absolutely everyone, who want to buy the gun, must be checked for mental issues. I have guns all my live. I never shot anyone.

 

[Luthier]

Message from President:
"If you like your gun - you can keep it."

 

[Dr.Verylong]

Thankfully guns are heavily restricted in my country, although we ironically have some of the craftiest gun manufacturers here. The rare instances of shootings are reported in the news, because they are so rare. And also there are very, very few armed robberies. I like that and I don't feel unsafe at all by not having any weapons in the house.

The problem is that we have neighboring countries with less restrictive legislation and/or a high corruption rate, so it has become easier to (illegally) obtain a gun. Not funny.

 

[SUMIKITO]

Guns and the right to bear them.....

Well it is something you are born into. It is in the Constitution, which is the LAW of the land. Crime would not diminish if guns were outlawed, it would only change the way people kill people. Without the Second Amendment, the govt. would never fear the people, and the people ARE the law of the land. The government is supposed to serve the needs of the people in America. Not the other way around. America continues to be one of the safest places on Earth, and most people here believe that, and continue to live here. Would you rather be somewhere else? .............Hard to explain, to others who have not been here for a long time. Tragedy's do happen in all parts of the world, only its in a different manner. 99.9 percent of Americans are good law abiding people, only a few destroy that image. Guns are like any other tool, it has no mind of its own. It is an inert object, like a hammer, an ax, or what not. There are thousands of laws in regards to firearms, but many are not enforced to the letter. It is the person that misuses it that is to blame, not the object. We should lock these bad people up and throw away the key !! Hope I cleared up a little bit of this misconceptions. :cheers: Fear not the gun, but the person. There are no bad guns, only bad people.

 

[Dr.Verylong]

Well, it may be a matter of perspective. But a tool is there to be used. Tell that people who got shot by children ("My first Remington") or in fact by any person in a hot temper. Our country had plenty of arms (good ones at that) and see to where it lead.

Guns are one of the reason why we don't go on holiday in the US. In fact last time we wanted to return a rental car in Miami, we arrived in time to witness armed robbers flee the station and the police later told us that was a quite frequent occurence there. I do agree that the USA is nice in some places, but I don't like people bearing arms at all.

 

[i_like_shiney_things]

Interesting points but lets consider this... a shooting in a school where 27 people were killed. Of course it was the person that did the shooting and not the guns fault, I don't dispute that... however if this person didn't have access to guns and went in armed with a knife how likely is it that he would have been able to kill 27 people before being disarmed?

Sumikito... America is a relatively dangerous place to live when you consider crime rate per capita against other Western countries. I'm not saying it's dangerous compared to living in Somalia etc but it is one of the most dangerous developed countries in the world... again this is not based on my opinion but on simple crime statistics which can be obtained online by anyone here using the FBI database (open access area).

Luthier... cars kill more than guns yes, however why not look at the rate of car related deaths that are accidents as opposed to those that are actively involved as the weapon of homicide. I can't really consider this figure in respect of crime... in the same way that I didn't include accidental gun related deaths in America, of which there are many

Trial... thought gun area would be the correct place, apologies and thanks for moving the thread

 

[Dr.Verylong]

thought gun area would be the correct place, apologies and thanks for moving the thread

I'd have placed that in the gun section as well, but guns are a very sensitive topic.

 

[trailboss99]

Political discussion of this type is not permitted in The Gun Safe.

 

[rhp1462]

Message from President:
"If you like your gun - you can keep it."

Very creative luth. Good one.


Sent from 1:1 app mad with a gen Tapatalk as sample.

 

[Dr.Verylong]

It is an inert object, like a hammer, an ax, or what not.

Well I've yet to see anybody hammering a nail into the wall with a handgun, especially one with live ammunition in it.

If I follow your argumentation: A nuclear bomb is an inert object, so why not let the Iranis have it? Iran is one of the safest places on Earth when it comes to nuclear explosions, as there have been none (yet). Japan is more dangerous in terms of radiation, or maybe even Three-Miles-Island.

Guns have no other purpose than killing/maiming/wounding and to enforce the gun wielders will ("Stop or I'll shoot"). A hammer's purpose is mainly to drive nails into a wall. To use them as a weapon would be misuse.

The discussion is interesting, though.

 

[Luthier]

Interesting points but lets consider this... a shooting in a school where 27 people were killed. Of course it was the person that did the shooting and not the guns fault, I don't dispute that... however if this person didn't have access to guns and went in armed with a knife how likely is it that he would have been able to kill 27 people before being disarmed?

Sumikito... America is a relatively dangerous place to live when you consider crime rate per capita against other Western countries. I'm not saying it's dangerous compared to living in Somalia etc but it is one of the most dangerous developed countries in the world... again this is not based on my opinion but on simple crime statistics which can be obtained online by anyone here using the FBI database (open access area).

Luthier... cars kill more than guns yes, however why not look at the rate of car related deaths that are accidents as opposed to those that are actively involved as the weapon of homicide. I can't really consider this figure in respect of crime... in the same way that I didn't include accidental gun related deaths in America, of which there are many

Trial... thought gun area would be the correct place, apologies and thanks for moving the thread

If that moron in school shooting wouldn't have a gun - he would find the way to make a bomb, and will kill even more people. He was a psycho, and shouldn't have access to any guns. That's where problem lies. As I said - I own guns all my life, and I'm quite hot tempered person. And I have "carry permit". Did I ever pull gun on somebody? Nope. Will I ever shoot somebody in self defense? Absolutely. I have guns to protect my life, my family, and my property.
About cars... accidents or not - cars kill way more people, reason is not important. Statistic is. So, why not to ban cars? Less accidents, less lost lives, according to your logic. No, mate, it doesn't work this way.
Unfortunately, police here not able to protect everyone, that's why we have guns. For protection. Eliminate possibility for psychos to get a weapons - and you'll never hear about mass shootings again.

 

[Dr.Verylong]

Unfortunately, police here not able to protect everyone, that's why we have guns. For protection.

Self justice. Hooray. Man, am I happy to live in a civilised country.

 

[i_like_shiney_things]

So America has more psychopaths per capita than other developed countries?
The 'if he didn't have a gun he'd make a bomb' argument doesn't fly with me either sorry to say... if it was that simple then why aren't there mass bombing deaths in Korea, the UK etc etc.

Once again I'm not having a go at anyones beliefs, just interested

 

[trailboss99]

He was a psycho, and shouldn't have access to any guns. That's where problem lies.

^^^ this ^^^
Control the nut on the but, not the fire arm. Stricter licencing, cooling off periods, bigger penalties for those who leave fire arms where they can be accessed by others and the like is what is needed. And if it doesn't happen then sooner or later you have your guns taken away from you all just like we did because some nutter who never should have had access to guns got his hands on one.

What a shame there wasn't a sporting shooter in the Port Author car park that day . . .

 

[i_like_shiney_things]

America has 256 police officers per 100,000 people compared to 217 in Australia, 202 in Canada, 197 in Japan, 195 in South Korea etc... all with much much lower crime rates in all areas and particularly gun crime.

Just throwing that figure out in regards to "Unfortunately, police here not able to protect everyone, that's why we have guns. For protection."

 

[i_like_shiney_things]

^^^ this ^^^
Control the nut on the but, not the fire arm. Stricter licencing, cooling off periods, bigger penalties for those who leave fire arms where they can be accessed by others and the like is what is needed. And if it doesn't happen then sooner or later you have your guns taken away from you all just like we did because some nutter who never should have had access to guns got his hands on one.

What a shame there wasn't a sporting shooter in the Port Author car park that day . . .

I don't disagree with this at all... I don't believe that all Americans should have their guns taken away from them, I just believe that there needs to be much stricter laws on getting guns in the first place and how you store them.

What I am confused by are the Americans who refuse to admit that there is any reason, or need, to change the existing gun laws... and that is a large portion of the public

 

[Dr.Verylong]

What a shame there wasn't a sporting shooter in the Port Author car park that day . . .

To me it seems like a spiral - availability of guns drives violent crime drives "self defence" with guns drives armed response ...

Probably this is an issue that can't be solved any longer, there are too many guns about in some places of the Earth.