Something doesn't add up...

[hooligan]

OK, so the guys on Paneristi have a legendary hatred for all things replica, right? Right.

So, we also know that Dirk straps are also immensely popular over there, right? Right.

So how do we explain away the fact that Dirk's straps and buckles bear both the OP logo and the Panerai name, yet are NOT considered replica items? Did he license the use of the name and logo from Ricehmont? I somehow doubt that. Especially considering the fact that some other company (I believe Hirsch) manufactures the OEM Panerai straps.

So, what am I missing?

 

[dave123]

Breitling...

Your missing a Breitling..... :|

 

[Klink]

that is fair

what you said and

what they do..

different points of view

is all

reality?

lol

 

[pete2528ca]

hooli, i am going to start busting some balls over there. point me to the right thread...

 

[horologie_unitas]

you know...very honestly....i thought the same thing when lately somebody offered a black KODIAK strap ...with a Panerai / logo buckle that was not gen.
the strap was offered for $ 300.....
well i guess this strapmaker is very established on Risti.

 

[babola]

Lack of availability and desirability of Dirk straps overshadows 'ristis urge to call and label it as a rep/fake.

7-8 years ago Dirk simply decided to use his know-how from the days of his employment under original OP, and by re-creating the "original" PAV styled straps, fill the void and lack of good quality straps that became evident soon after Vendome bought the OP company in '97.
One has to remember that he came out with his PAV straps "replicas" at the time when Panerai replica watches were nowhere to be seen, and the only ones available (first attempts you could by on Canal street at the time) were low quality low cost "watches" laughed at by both Paneristi enthusiasts and OP/Richemont, so no need for a concern over decent good replication of the original watches.

Dirk went on his own and started producing PAV straps lookalikes, using the same leather waterprofing Kodiak method original pre-V PAV straps of the early '90es came with. He also replicated 1:1 the pre-V bottle opener type sewn-in buckle from PAVs originals. The reason he stopped making these straps eventualy was simple and understandable - he was approached by OP/Richemont and asked to cease the production of so called Dirk PAV straps as it breached copyright and trademark rights. This actually happened roughly at the same time Guangzhou started churning out good quality Pam replicas and straps at an alarming rate, and it's no wonder OP/Richemont acted the way they did.
He obliged, thus avoiding a legal charge and potentialy expensive and tedious court proceedings that were to follow.

Dirk is a very approachable person, I advise anyone that wants to know/hear more about this from the horse's mouth to send him an email. His contact details can be found on Paneristi.com.

cheers,
babola

 

[andyaudi42]

AHAAHAHHA.

Dave, my toronto brother, you are too much!

 

[hooligan]

Yes, this thread was more to point out, yet again, the inconsistent "logic" shown by the majority of the folks over there. It was not meant to be a dig at Dirk, whatsoever. From all evidence he is a top bloke and quite friendly.

 

[fakemaster]

Great explanation Babola but available or not, they are in fact replicas as Hooligan said. Maybe I can help with that. If you have an Aston Martin and you swap the wheels out, is the car no longer genuine? Of course it is. That's the way the Paneristi view it. As long as the watch head itself was made by Panerai, that's all they care about. Straps are meant to be a symbol of personal taste therefore interchangeable. As long as the case at the end of that strap is real they can justify it even if all the other parts (including the movement) have been modified or replaced.

I guess that's where opinion differs. For me, I don't care if you spent 10k on wheels the car is not worth more to me. In fact it's worth less because you changed it. If they aren't the ones that came on the car then it's no longer whole. That's even more true with watches. The hunk of metal and gears that make up a PAM isn't worth 10K to begin with so I certainly am not going to pay you more if you went generic on the strap.

Either way you could really fuck with them by bringing it up Pete. It will be entertaining to watch them flail around.

 

[babola]

Great explanation Babola but available or not, they are in fact replicas as Hooligan said.

You might have misread my post. It was merely an observation followed by additional info relating to Dirk's strap manufacture I learned in my 6 year stint @ Paneristi.com, as many here wouldn't have know that.
I'm neither protecting nor acusing Dirk, just stating the facts.

..and as far as discussion weather they're replicas or not is concerned, of course they are replicas...read my post again.

babola

 

[fakemaster]

I know. I was just giving my two cents for Hooligan. I think the Paneristi are idiots. Then again some of the rep collectors are nuts too. Your post was great.

 

[hk45ca]

anytime you remove the genuine strap/bracelet from a watch and replace it with something from an aftermarket manufacturer it is a frankin watch at that point. could you just imagine what would be said to and about you if you removed the solid 18k 10,000.00 bracelet from a rolex dd presidential and put any kind of aftermarket strap/bracelet on it. you would be crucified. if you even put a black bezel insert on a lv sub you would be drawn and quartered. somehow it is ok to trash a pam with aftermarket parts because they say it is ok. panerai people love to play the elitist card to the hilt but they are just really trashing their watches with non genuine parts. funny how that works isn't it? why won't they just admit that over priced watch they just bought came with a cheap piece of crap 2.00 junky leather strap on it? their hypocrisy knows no boundaries. :roll:

 

[hooligan]

I disagree that a watch becomes a franken the minute you put an aftermarket bracelet/strap on it.

The point wasn't about when a watch becomes a rep or a franken, it was simply another illustration of how a lot of gen owners (especially on P.com, it seems) pick and choose when to apply their criteria of what is and what isn't a replica. Much like the "homages" that people have built and gotten ridiculed for vs. the other homages that long-time 'Risti have built that are deemed completely above board.

The point was that Dirk *was* illegally using the OP logo and the Panerai name on items that he was selling for profit. The very same thing they villify replica watches for. Yet, Dirk's old straps are very sought after while rep watches and even most "homage" pieces are met with very high levels of scorn.

 

[hk45ca]

I disagree that a watch becomes a franken the minute you put an aftermarket bracelet/strap on it.

The point wasn't about when a watch becomes a rep or a franken, it was simply another illustration of how a lot of gen owners (especially on P.com, it seems) pick and choose when to apply their criteria of what is and what isn't a replica. Much like the "homages" that people have built and gotten ridiculed for vs. the other homages that long-time 'Risti have built that are deemed completely above board.

The point was that Dirk *was* illegally using the OP logo and the Panerai name on items that he was selling for profit. The very same thing they villify replica watches for. Yet, Dirk's old straps are very sought after while rep watches and even most "homage" pieces are met with very high levels of scorn.

put one on a rolex and see what you get told. it is mearly accepted by the panerai crowd, it isn't accepted by anybody else.

there was a big mess with tc straps, dirk and the panerai logo buckle's if i remember correctly and panerai came after them.

 

[hooligan]

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that no one felt that way, HK, I just said I don't agree with it. Those Rolex guys are nutty, IMO. So, if I have a gen SD and I put a Bond NATO on it, now it's no longer a Rolex? That makes no sense to me, honestly.

Yes, TC got in trouble with Panerai, too, but it was for using photos of Elliot's straps mounted on Panerai watches, not using the OP logo or the Panerai name on any of his straps to my knowledge.

Anyway, I just wanted to start this thread to point out another example of hypocrisy on one of the gen forums, i.e. replica watches are evil, but replica straps are OK.

 

[hk45ca]

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that no one felt that way, HK, I just said I don't agree with it. Those Rolex guys are nutty, IMO. So, if I have a gen SD and I put a Bond NATO on it, now it's no longer a Rolex? That makes no sense to me, honestly.

Yes, TC got in trouble with Panerai, too, but it was for using photos of Elliot's straps mounted on Panerai watches, not using the OP logo or the Panerai name on any of his straps to my knowledge.

Anyway, I just wanted to start this thread to point out another example of hypocrisy on one of the gen forums, i.e. replica watches are evil, but replica straps are OK.

i thought the op logo was on the buckle's. it was a trademark infringement of some sort. i don't remember all of it now but unless they deleted it the threads are still there.

i was making the same point you were. it is ok for them to put aftermarket stuff on their watch and it isn't considered a rep/fake/frankin. the straps look like the original so did they copy it? to me it isn't any different than copying the shape of the case.

and yes, if you change the bracelet on your rolex to an aftermarket one, it isn't original and it will get you burned at the stake...

 

[fakemaster]

It does go back to the car thing I was talking about. If I have a restored classic mopar 440 it is worth money. But if that car has the original 440 block that came with the car it is considered to be 'original' and therefore worth more.

 

[hooligan]

It does go back to the car thing I was talking about. If I have a restored classic mopar 440 it is worth money. But if that car has the original 440 block that came with the car it is considered to be 'original' and therefore worth more.

While that's true, straps are a bit more of a "wear item" like tires or brakes. A restored car with non-original tires isn't worth less. :wink:

The motor would be more akin to a true franken watch with a different movement.

 

[hk45ca]

It does go back to the car thing I was talking about. If I have a restored classic mopar 440 it is worth money. But if that car has the original 440 block that came with the car it is considered to be 'original' and therefore worth more.

While that's true, straps are a bit more of a "wear item" like tires or brakes. A restored car with non-original tires isn't worth less. :wink:

The motor would be more akin to a true franken watch with a different movement.

the original oem tires are still available for those types of cars. you can still buy goodyear polyglass gt's and even the goodyear red lines. if that is what the car came with you have to have them. you can even get the original oem batteries for these cars. it is the same as if you had to replace your original pam strap with a new original pam strap.

 

[fakemaster]

Exactly!