Revisiting my Franken 16800 “Zorro”

[turbo911]

​

After finishing my 1675 raffles project and my DW v23 6263, I am thinking about revisiting and upgrading my Franken 16800 “Zorro”


Here is the current status quo:





Its based on a 20 year old MBW 16610 Submariner case with lugholes and 316L steel and good crown height (gen 3035 fits). I has a bezel with correct thickness and correct bevel and more correct shallow teeth which are different to the successor 16610.
The case just has the right proportions and the “look” compared to a gen neo vintage sub. Even compared with todays available rep cases.
The downside was fitting the endlinks was a PITA because the lugholes are a tad bit far from the tips of the lugs. I had to shorten the endlinks to get them to fit.

The watch features a rarer gen Tritium 16800 dial with flat „S“ also called “Zorro” dial or “Zubmariner” imho dating the watch to around 1985-87 and 8-9 million serial.

As movement I installed a Swiss ETA 2386 with a really nice DWO with great serifs.
As bracelet, i used a rep 93150 with hollow midlinks and 580 endlinks (I don’t have the correct 593 endlinks).

First a bit of history about the 16800 (because i like to research :
The 16800 was the first Rolex sport model to have a sapphire crystal along with a high beat movement, caliber 3035 . It followed the 1680.
Rolex also introduced a Quickset date function for added convenience. The 16800 featured an improved water resistance rating of 300 meters, aligning with today's Submariners.
The bezel design was changed to a safer unidirectional rotation, preventing accidental time measurement errors during dives.
Case size is 39mm. From its introduction in 1979, up until 1984, Rolex continued to use the matte dials with painted hour markers.
On later 16800's - from 1983 and until 1987 - the matte was replaced with a gloss dial and hour markers surrounded with white gold.

Toward the end of the production of the 16800, and for only about nine months, Rolex produced the 168000, in which the stainless steel was upgraded from grade 316 to grade 904. The one main difference between both models is the stainless steel material.
Ultimately, the ref. 16800 was phased out in the late 1980s, making way for the ref. 16610 and a new era of Submariner watches.

Gen:


Ad in 1985 funnily not mentioning the reference (we are geeks arent we)


So, following thoughts for possible improvements:
Insert
Install genuine 16800 insert with tritium pearl I have. I think i also have one with an aged tritium pearl but have to look in the safe.


Movement

History: The gen 16800 received an updated caliber, the 3035 with higher frequency of 28,800 bph and introduction of a quick-set date function for the first time and increased power reserve up to 42 hours.
Since the 16800 is equipped with a 3035 caliber which is taller than its successor 3135 which was used in the 16610, the 16800 case had a shallow and also more perpendicular rehaut. But more on this topic when it comes to my case options.

So what are my movement options:
using a clone 3135: not sure if that would fit because of stem height since the case is made for 3035 or 2836, so most likely not because of stem height issues.

Gen 3035: apparently should fit the case but too costly and I would rather use it on one of my all-gen-parts projects.

Unfortunately there are no clone 3035
Therefore I probably will stay with the swiss Eta 2836 which I serviced and which runs great. 2836 has also almost the same stem height as the rolex 3035, therefore it fits nicely in the case.

to be continued...

 

[Rocketdog]

​

After finishing my 1675 raffles project and my DW v23 6263, I am thinking about revisiting and upgrading my Franken 16800 “Zorro”


Here is the current status quo:





Its based on a 20 year old MBW 16610 Submariner case with lugholes and 316L steel and good crown height (gen 3035 fits). I has a bezel with correct thickness and correct bevel and more correct shallow teeth which are different to the successor 16610.
The case just has the right proportions and the “look” compared to a gen neo vintage sub. Even compared with todays available rep cases.
The downside was fitting the endlinks was a PITA because the lugholes are a tad bit far from the tips of the lugs. I had to shorten the endlinks to get them to fit.

The watch features a rarer gen Tritium 16800 dial with flat „S“ also called “Zorro” dial or “Zubmariner” imho dating the watch to around 1985 and 8.8 million serial.

As movement I installed a Swiss ETA 2386 with a really nice DWO with great serifs.
As bracelet, i used a rep 93150 with hollow midlinks and 580 endlinks (I don’t have the correct 593 endlinks).

First a bit of history about the 16800 (because i like to research :
The 16800 was the first Rolex sport model to have a sapphire crystal along with a high beat movement, caliber 3035 . It followed the 1680.
Case size is 39mm. From its introduction in 1979, up until 1984, Rolex continued to use the matte dials with painted hour markers.
On later 16800's - from 1983 and until 1987 - the matte was replaced with a gloss dial and hour markers surrounded with white gold.

Toward the end of the production of the 16800, and for only about nine months, Rolex produced the 168000, in which the stainless steel was upgraded from grade 316 to grade 904. The one main difference between both models is the stainless steel material.



So, following thoughts for possible improvements:
Insert
Install genuine 16800 insert with tritium pearl I have. I think i also have one with an aged tritium pearl but have to look in the safe.


Movement

History: The gen 16800 received an updated caliber, the 3035 with higher frequency of 28,800 bph and introduction of a quick-set date function for the first time and increased power reserve up to 42 hours.
Since the 16800 is equipped with a 3035 caliber which is taller than its successor 3135 which was used in the 16610, the 16800 case had a shallow and also more perpendicular rehaut. But more on this topic when it comes to my case options.

So what are my movement options:
using a clone 3135: not sure if that would fit because of stem height since the case is made for 3035 or 2836, so most likely not because of stem height issues.

Gen 3035: apparently should fit the case but too costly and I would rather use it on one of my all-gen-parts projects.

Unfortunately there are no clone 3035
Therefore I probably will stay with the swiss Eta 2836 which I serviced and which runs great.

to be continued...

Lovely build.

 

[est4129]

Beautiful. If I ever decide to build a Rolex instead of Tudors a 16800 would be at the top of my list!

 

[turbo911]

ok on we go.

addition to the first post regarding the history of that reference (found online):
The 16800 or Submariner 300 m was introduced around 1978, ten years after the first Sub Date
The history of the 16800 is like many Subs / SDs linked to Comex, for which Rolex produced around 300 numbered 16800’s with matte and gloss dials between 82 and 86. Some gloss 16800’s had a problem: the tritium COMEX logo dials had little pieces come off the dial. Many received a 16610 tritium replacement COMEX dial when serviced.
This was not the only problem the early 16800 gloss dials. Some have spider web like cracks in the gloss coating. The matte dials are sometimes brownish and the markers get a lot of patina on some samples.

so back to my watch.
Movement
background story: The 1575 movement powering its predecessor ref. 1680 was retired and replaced with the higher-beat cal. 3035 with a then-new Quickset date function for for added convenience.

A safer unidirectional rotation bezel was used, preventing accidental time measurement errors during dives. The 16800 was also the first Submariner to provide water resistance up to 300 meters, which remains the Submariner’s standard depth rating to this day. Quite interesting since we keep forgetting these days that these watches were initially build for professional divers, really… serious divers not bathtub divers like me.

so my options are:
a) using a clone 3135: not sure if that would fit because of stem height since the case is made for 3035 or 2836, so most likely not. Might test it, then i could get gen tritium hands
b) Gen 3035: apparently should fit the case but too costly and If i would get one, I would rather use it on one of my all-gen-parts projects. Unfortunately no rep 3035 available
c) keep the swiss ETA 2836

Probably i will stay with the swiss Eta 2836 which I serviced and which runs great but out of curiosity will test if a VS/VR3135 wil fit.

Datewheel
Early 16800 had the old style silver date wheel with open 6’s and 9’s and round top 3´s. After some time, Rolex switched to a white datewheel.


I have a perfect white DWO with open 6’s and 9’s and round top 3´s installed, so no need to change that.

 

[turbo911]

Bracelet​

Background

The 16800 came with 93150 bracelet and 593 endlinks.
You often see 16800 with 580 and 501b endlinks, but Rolex originally fitted 593 although both 580 and 501b endlinks fit perfectly and are often also offered from an AD when you want to buy a new 93150 for a 16800.

An interesting bit is that there are 2 variations of 593 endlinks.
593 end links with a round 3 font and 593 with a flat 3 font. 16800 equipped with matte dials will have the flat 3 links, later gloss dial watches will have the rounded 3. Similar to the datewheels, silver datwheels had flat 3`s and later white datewheels round top 3´s. Seems that the flat top 3 font was phased out by Rolex.

If one wants a newer style of bracelet, the 93250 bracelet with SEL will also fit your 16800 since it has this milled out ridge at the case between the lugs. Would never do that of course

Back to my watch.

I have a gen 93150 clasp with U9 code in my parts box which dates it to 1996/97. Inknow too late for my 198xish 16800 but often bracelets were replaced therefore that’s good enough for me.

I also have a gen 93150 bracelet with 580 endlinks but its installed on my 1680 Franken and I don’t want to cannibalize that one.


Anyone got a pair of 593? ;-) I am not aware of rep 593s, Raffles only has 580.

I am not willing to shell out 300+ EUR for a 2 pieces of cheap bend sheet metal even if its gen RLX

to be continued...

 

[heska]

Hi, great project !

It's actually possible to fit a 3135 in a 3035, but it will need some works . See there for example: https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/franken-rolex-datejust-build-with-vs-3135.10919812/
You can keep your 3035 hands but the datewheel will not fit a 3135

 

[turbo911]

It's actually possible to fit a 3135 in a 3035, but it will need some works . See there for example: https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/franken-rolex-datejust-build-with-vs-3135.10919812/
You can keep your 3035 hands but the datewheel will not fit a 3135

Thanks for the link, will have a look! So needs reducing the diameter of the 3135 to fit far enough inside the case so that also the stem lines up.
i am still not sure if i would proceeed with installing a 3135 even if i would manage to get it in since it would not be period correct same as the great running swiss ETA.. But would have of course a bit more of a Rolex look.
And yes you are right, i also would need to find a datewheel with open 6 and 9 and flat top 3 for 3135 since the overlay will not work. Do you know of a source for a good one?

 

[turbo911]

Holy cow, in the next post I will iterate that if my 16800 Franken is in reality a 168000 'triple zero' Franken.

To be continued…

 

[Mjh2k4]

I'm digging the serialized nature of this thread! Officially following this!

From a reliability stand point, and an accuracy standpoint I would imagine that a low beat ETA that's properly serviced etc (as long as DWO is good and feet on dial of course) is actually more accurate and an easier fit for this build?

 

[turbo911]

I'm digging the serialized nature of this thread! Officially following this!

From a reliability stand point, and an accuracy standpoint I would imagine that a low beat ETA that's properly serviced etc (as long as DWO is good and feet on dial of course) is actually more accurate and an easier fit for this build?

thanks i have some more episodes to come!

high beat is actually correct since the 16800 got a 3035 with 28,800bph following the 1570 with low beat in the 1680. So ETA 2836 is fine. low beat would be 2846 which i actually installed in some 1680 or 1665 which feature caliber 1570.
And you are correct, service and reliable movement! And since you dont see it as long as you dont open the case, why messing around getting a 3135 into the case...
But on the other hand we are always looking for challenges

 

[Mjh2k4]

Ah true, I thought the 3035 may still have been low beat for some reason! With the 16800 is it the usual spacer ring+ dial feet removal to get an ETA on it?

 

[turbo911]

Holy cow, in the next post I will iterate that if my 16800 Franken is in reality a 168000 'triple zero' Franken.

To be continued…

Dial​

First some background
When it hit the market in 1979, the 16800 initially was equipped with matte dial with painted indices, similar as its predecessor 1680. However in 1984 Rolex opted for a more modern look with a glossy dial with applied white gold-trimmed hour markers which made it look almost identical to its successor, the ref. 16610.
All of the 16800 and also including the early 16610 dials had tritium markers until 1999/2000, when Rolex started to use Luminova, followed by Super Luminova.

What I also find very interesting is that the 16800 gloss dial featured larger indices most likely an inheritance from the matte predecessors. The following 16610 dials got smaller indices. Funny since the 16800 dial is more in line with the present day maxi dial. Back to the roots!

About Zorro​

I always thought that I have built a Franken 16800, but actually I might not. During this project I was researching again the 16800 and 168000 specifics and yesterday i found this:

I was looking for examples of 16800 with this type of Zorro dial but could only find them in 168000 `triple zero`. So I had a closer look at the 168000 which was produced at the end of the 16800 lifetime for a very short time. Since Rolex doesn't provide production data, its hard to determine the exact production date of a watch based on its serial#. It more or less gives a rough timeframe.

"The production of the 168000 started with a high 9 million serial number and finished with the R serial batch. This would translate to 1987 to 1988. 168000 is one of the shortest produced Rolex models of all times. "

“Among the dial variations, there was a limited production of a dial referred to as the “Zorro Dial,” which earned his name by the inverted letter “S” in “Submariner” resembling a letter “Z.” These dials were only produced for a short period, typically within the first two quarters of 1987 and thus are quite rare.”

There seem to be 2 dial styles of the 168000 dial, known as Mark 1 and Mark 2. The main difference between the two is the font style and particularly the style of the letter S in Submariner. Mark 1 has a flipped Z, also known as Sorro/Zorro and Mark 2 a 'curvy S'.
Also MK1 features a more elongated, taller crown (vase with flowers) and the MK2 a squatty Rolex crown. Also on the MK1 the "zeroes" in "1000" depth rating are more round and wider than the ones on MK2

Some say that that these so-called "Zorro" dials may be the rarest of the 16800 dials. but not sure about that maybe because th eproduction time of the 168000was very short.

Gen 168000:

Comparison with my dial:

That means my dial is actually a MKI 168000 dial. Dated around 1987/1988. Wow did not know that until yesterday

But wait... this also means my watch mimicks a 168000 and not a 16800. Which also means I would need a 904L midcase
But you wont be able to see the difference imho so most likely i wil not care.

 

[turbo911]

Ah true, I thought the 3035 may still have been low beat for some reason! With the 16800 is it the usual spacer ring+ dial feet removal to get an ETA on it?

yes spacer ring + clipped dial feet unfortunately. They wre already removed when i bought it. Theycame in the box with the dial, still have them and might have them soldered on if if i go with a 3135.

 

[Mjh2k4]

Interesting turn of events! And apparently VSF has been selling us 316L 904L submariners for a while and no one noticed. So it isn't a thing anyways! Plus side this opens up a 3135 too now! But closes off the open 6 and 9 right?

I'd never noticed the S differential. Is the Swiss T font under the 6 also different?

 

[turbo911]

Plus side this opens up a 3135 too now! But closes off the open 6 and 9 right?

I'd never noticed the S differential. Is the Swiss T font under the 6 also different?

there are 3135 datewheels with open 6 and 9 and flat top 3 on Aliexpress, so correct for a 16800/0 although a bit light print, not quite fat enough. But apparently they will not ship to my location anymore so have to look out for an alternative.

Regarding Zorro "S": Swiss T font should be the same, maybe very slight font differences. But for me its the same.

There are also "Semi-Zorro" dials or better "flat S" since its not the same. These "flat S" dials spread randomly over various Sub references, there are even 2 variants on 16610 subs. I will also post something about that later.

 

[turbo911]

Dial part 2​

Not solely related to the 16800/0 but nevertheless interesting:

There are also some slightly milder Zorros called “Semi-Zorro” or flat “S” appear randomly on some 14060 and 16610 models from about 2000-2006. Even vintage subs sometimes have it. Apparently it could have to do something with the different dial manufacturers which provided dials in batches and Rolex switching between them for cost reasons or capacity reasons of the dial companys. Who knows.

On the 16610 there are generations where a flat “S” appears, also on luminova dials:

But for me that are not real Zorros since its more a flatter ”S” and not a “Z”. And they keep appearing on different models in different years. So I think flat “S” and Zorros” are different and not the same, also visually. The S is pretty flat but it's definitely not as flat as a real Zorro “Z” But that’s just my theory.

Here is a gen 1987 168000 true Zorro my watch tries to mimick:

I had my gen Zorro Dial laying in my parts box for almost 2 decades, similar story to my DW 6263. I think I bought it back then thinking it’s a 16610 dial because it was only described as “Submariner dial” before I much later realized its actually a 16800 (correction now 168000) dial.


It has developed a lovely patina. And it started to turn matte (problem of the gloss laquer Rolex used for some dials back then).

Oh my, I digressed, hope its not getting boring. I really fancy watch archeology.

 

[indy430]

I’m a fan of the 16800!

 

[WatchN3RD]

I’m a fan of the 16800!

Super clean dial with an awesome lume aging, possibly the greatest hands ever, date wheel has micro-precise serifs... is everything genuine? It's gotta be. Beautiful specimen there.

 

[indy430]

Super clean dial with an awesome lume aging, possibly the greatest hands ever, date wheel has micro-precise serifs... is everything genuine? It's gotta be. Beautiful specimen there.

Good eye! Dial, crystal, insert, tube, crown, 3035 are all Gen. Hands are actually from Yuki that I re-lumed with Noctilumina to match the dial. Case is Ruby. So basically it’s all gen except hands and mid case.

 

[turbo911]

Case part I

Before i get to the case details, first a short digression.

Like already mentioned, the case of the 16800 was made out of 316L stainless steel like the stainless steel subs before. The 168000, introduced most likely end of 1987 or beginning of 1988 (discussed controversially) and only produced for a very short production time of somewhat 9 -18 months (again controversially discussed) was the first Sub Date to have 904L steel for the midcase. That is the only thing that differentiates it from the 16800. So how come, very untypical.

The reason behind that move was simple and typically Rolex. In 1978/88 Rolex planned to introduce the new 16610, which featured a case made out of the 904 steel, but the 3135 movements were not ready in time (talk about project management).

IMHO Rolex had 2 options: Either produce more of the soon to be retired 16800 3035 cases to bridge the gap until the 3135 and 16610 were ready to be released. But since cases need to be made in high number batches (machining & cost reasons etc.) and the fact that they were just needed for a very limited timeframe, they would face the risk that they will then end up with quite a number of then unusable 16800 cases, so a lot of dead money. Or they take the new case produced for the 16610 which was clear that it will be produced for a long time and adapt them to take a 3035 movement and sell these. A lot cheaper option. Uninterrupted sales ensured. Easy decision.

So they just took the already finished new 16610 904L cases, machined the inner of the cases a bit to fit a 3035 movement (taller as the 3135), engraved “168000” on the case between the lugs and fitted them with the 16800's 3035 movements = the 168000 was born.

Well, not officially ;-) Officially the 168000 never existed, no sign of it even not in the Rolex inventory lists. In all official documentation “16800” was written, only exemption was on the case between the lugs where Rolex engraved the "16800" with an extra “0” as a sign of the 904L midcase to keep them apart from the non-machined 16610 cases.
Some 168000 have serials with the last "0" somehow offset. Its controversial if these are actually "fake 168000" with simply an additionally engraved "0" to realise a higher sales price or if Rolex had some 16610 cases already engraved with "16800" and then added a "0". The latter only makes sense if Rolex already began with using and engraving 16610 cases to use them for 16800 and then decided that they should perhaps add something to keep these cases apart from the regular 16610 cases.

Ok, Rolex threw together parts from both worlds, the (neo) vintage 16800 and the modern 16610. So the 168000 can be called an original in-house Rolex Frankenwatch ;-)

Visually, you can't tell the difference from a late 16800, a 168000 and an early 16610.