Pugwash's Panerai diatribe.

[pugwash]

I posted this on another forum as part of a thread, but seeing as I just visit there and I live here, I thought it best to bring this over. I considered it for the Flame-free, but realised that would be missing the point, as it's the lack of fear of flames that makes this a worthy rant.

Sit back, get the popcorn and beer out and settle in.

The bottom is going to fall out of the Palbundi market. The whole Panerai craze is like the tulipomania of the 17th century. The reason they have value is that they have value. The watches themselves have nothing going for them, apart from nice typography and ... um, they're big. Panerai is a brand based on smoke and mirrors and the tears in the seams are showing. Their new watches are, to be frank, low-end hockey-pucks made of off-the-shelf components. Once the emperor has been deemed naked, and that's at the end of this diatribe, the value of vintage models will be taken down along with the crumbling realisation that nothing new has come out of the factory since they turned a pocket watch on its side and put it underwater.

Oh, sorry, they have a technical innovation. I forgot. That crown guard, which really is too big and serves no purpose, apart from covering up an ability to add a threaded crown to a bought-in movement. You might as well get a Graham Cockfighter OVORKOMPENSATOR watch, at that point.

The upside is that the prices on the vintages will stabilise and once the hollywood non-girly men move to something more cucumber-down-pants, you'll be able to buy pre-vendome models for realistic money instead of house-and-car money. Bad news for investors, good news for proper collectors.

Anyway, so as to be a harbinger, I'm saying it here and now.

The Emperor Has No Clothes: New Panerai watches are as good as Tag Hauers, and that's it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but them's the facts. Big Tag Hauers, sure.

 

[takashi]

What to do Pug? We already fall in love :roll:

 

[pugwash]

What to do Pug? We already fall in love :roll:

If you think this is in any way a dig at Panerai lovers, you've misread me. I believe the rep fans are the most loyal lovers of Panerais out there, and they're as responsible for the current craze as the pretentious wankers, if not more so. You're not the ones buying hockey-pucks for 10 grand. You guys are real fans, not brand-concious stallone wannabes. The strap discussons, the cannon pin recession, the hands, the dials. You guys are what will be left when the dead meat floats away.

 

[takashi]

That's puppy love
yeah true... IMHO the gen PAM are overpriced. Reasons being so (IMHO):

1. Movement is not complicated. (No moonphase, etc.) The most sophisticated that they got is the 8 days power reserve.
2. Look at most Panerai, they are using similar case. (think about economy of scale).
3. Brand recognition? Rolex is still the king... 90% of my collegues have not even heard before.

 

[pugwash]

Movement is not complicated.

Movement is bought-in.

 

[takashi]

They still have to engrave Panerai and install the swan neck regulator

 

[Chicken Manny]

Of course you just described most watch brands.

 

[Roeod4]

OK, tell us something we don't know. Everyone knows that the "history" behind Panerai is a bunch of crap, but it sounds nice and that is what they are using to sell it. The myths, hype and history do not sell the watch. They help to make them look more important than they are, but nobody buys the history of a watch company. If we did, everyone would be buying Rolex, because they "take a year to make one" LMAO. Or we would buy them because they have been to the north pole, the top of really big mountains and the bottom of the ocean....all places most Rolex owners will never ever go. In fact, most Panerai owners know that the watches are priced too damn high, but they like them...so they buy them.

Your rant could apply to almost every watch company that does not contain a grand complication in their line and even some that do. None of these watches are worth the money. A Patek for a million dollars? Please it's a damn watch! They are all WAY over priced and over hyped. Rolex has not done a thing different in decades and yet they continue to sell watches for prices that far exceed anything Panerai can think of, plus they see fit to raise that price annually. Oh, wait that's right... a Rolex is an investment and will gain in value. Why? Because they do. Oh, ok good reason. There is no real value behind something unless you put it there, you are right and this applies to every brand. Now you tell me why a Submariner should have any more value behind it than an Seamaster?

Just because you are a small wristed girly-man doesn't mean you should hate Panerai so much. :wink: We could find you nice 40mm with a pink strap!

 

[pugwash]

Just because you are a small wristed girly-man doesn't mean you should hate Panerai so much. :wink: We could find you nice 40mm with a pink strap!

First things first, I don't hate Panerais. I do dislike the new models intensly, but I put that down to different tastes. I don't like most new Tags either, but I can appreciate some people do, and I am more than happy to aree to disagree.

I like the vintage Panerais, and the only thing that has stopped me from buying one is the modern Panerais. That's it. I don't want to bump into a guy on the street with a genuine Ferrari Panerai who says "Nice watch, I've got one just like it ... isn't it cool?" If I wear a rep, it's because of the watch it is and what it conjures up, in spite of obviously never being able to afford a PO, a Sub, a GST ... etc., and these days, I just feel the Panerai brand is about to collapse.

We'll see if I'm right or wrong in the coming months.

I'll answer your other points shortly, as I can't have explained my point clearly enough given your response.

 

[pugwash]

Of course you just described most watch brands.

Really? So, Rolex making movements in-house, IWC doing some serious fettling on the ETAs, Seiko's Spring Drive, Patek, VC, Breuget ... These people don't take off-the-shelf parts and scribble on them a bit and turn them through 90-degrees...
Seriously, I see your point, and I don't really agree with your use of "most" unless you mean it as in "most low-end brands" which is NOT where Panerai have placed themselves. It's very clever marketing, whupped to the kerb solely by Rolex's amazingly planned inability to make enough Stainless Daytonas.

 

[Klink]

Franck Muller watches are also about to collapse, and for the very same reasons!

When you can buy a FM Conquistador rep for $300, AND it has the exact
same movent as the 10-15K genuine? AND that is for stainless steel...
(strap might be a bit better, of course).

LMAO - quick, sell all your stock in both Pannie and Muller
or have a diving board installed on your highrise office window..
because you will do a 1 1/2 gainer to the sidewalk below when
the bottom drops out!



Life is Good!
Klink

 

[pugwash]

Franck Muller watches are also about to collapse, and for the very same reasons!

...apart from they have some exceedingly high-end pieces to roll out every time their technical expertise is questioned.

 

[Klink]

yeah, ok maybe so
but they do not have
phony baloney stallone
or neato underwater pigs!

Klink

 

[Roeod4]

Just because you are a small wristed girly-man doesn't mean you should hate Panerai so much. :wink: We could find you nice 40mm with a pink strap!

First things first, I don't hate Panerais. I do dislike the new models intensly, but I put that down to different tastes. I don't like most new Tags either, but I can appreciate some people do, and I am more than happy to aree to disagree.

I like the vintage Panerais, and the only thing that has stopped me from buying one is the modern Panerais. That's it. I don't want to bump into a guy on the street with a genuine Ferrari Panerai who says "Nice watch, I've got one just like it ... isn't it cool?" If I wear a rep, it's because of the watch it is and what it conjures up, in spite of obviously never being able to afford a PO, a Sub, a GST ... etc., and these days, I just feel the Panerai brand is about to collapse.

We'll see if I'm right or wrong in the coming months.

I'll answer your other points shortly, as I can't have explained my point clearly enough given your response.

It was ment as a joke. I know you have sayed you liked some Panerai Watches int he past.

On the newer models, I have to agree with you. It isn't the same style it used to be.

I don't get what you are saying about seeing someone else wearing the same watch, why would you ever own a Rolex if that is a concern? You are twice as likely to run into a Rolex owner than you are to run into anyone who even knows what a Panerai is.

I guess that is what I am not getting. With the exception of not likeing the newer models, you are ranting about Panerai doing the exact same thing that Rolex has done for years.

 

[Klink]

must be that 'hate stallone' thing..
after all, how many manyly men do u know
who have nude statue of themself in foyer?

:roll:

Life is Good!
Klink

 

[Roeod4]

must be that 'hate stallone' thing..
after all, how many manyly men do u know
who have nude statue of themself in foyer?

:roll:

Life is Good!
Klink

Rock Hudson...he was manly right?

 

[Chicken Manny]

Of course you just described most watch brands.

Really? So, Rolex making movements in-house, IWC doing some serious fettling on the ETAs, Seiko's Spring Drive, Patek, VC, Breuget ... These people don't take off-the-shelf parts and scribble on them a bit and turn them through 90-degrees...
Seriously, I see your point, and I don't really agree with your use of "most" unless you mean it as in "most low-end brands" which is NOT where Panerai have placed themselves. It's very clever marketing, whupped to the kerb solely by Rolex's amazingly planned inability to make enough Stainless Daytonas.

The majority of mid-grade watch brands, which I would attach Panerai, use standard eta based movements on the majority of their models. Sure they may put something new together to show off from time to time but what is the real percentage of total sales associated with those movements? As far as Rlx, they only recently went in-house with their movements and I have no reason to think that their movements are much better now. I don't know how much better an El Primero Daytona movement can get.

My point was simply that if you are looking to identify true value in any watch brand you are going to have to narrow your focus to a very few examples. These watches are like diamonds, nothing magical, just of value in the mind of the owner or potential owner.

 

[THOR509]

Watches are no different than us dollars

A 100$ bill is a piece of paper! What gives it value ? US dollars [and these hi priced watches] are an idea backed by confidence, NOTHING MORE ! When confidence erodes in the entity that backs the issue , we get devaluation. This has happened to currencies all across the world ! And will happen to watches as well, and is , in fact , happening now as saturation in the market occurs. Make no mistake, as inflation occurs , [and it will soon!] more reps and less gens will be sold , esp as the reps increase in quality and availability , and mind share in the general public grows to accept the better ones as VERY good quality and value . We are talking economics here, it just happens to apply to our watches in spades LOL regards THOR

 

[pugwash]

The majority of mid-grade watch brands, which I would attach Panerai, use standard eta based movements on the majority of their models.

Panerai watches cost twice the price of an equivalent Tag Hauer. The watches are pretty much identical. I would not be surprised to see the prices get closer, in a downwards direction.

Or are you lumping Panerai in with higher-grade brands?

 

[Roeod4]

The majority of mid-grade watch brands, which I would attach Panerai, use standard eta based movements on the majority of their models.

Panerai watches cost twice the price of an equivalent Tag Hauer. The watches are pretty much identical. I would not be surprised to see the prices get closer, in a downwards direction.

Or are you lumping Panerai in with higher-grade brands?

I would actually do the oposite and lump Rolex, Omega, Beitling and a few others in with the level you are putting Tag and Panerai on.