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{*PCTeam*} PAM 172 Tantalium case set research log

kilowattore

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Tantalium vs titanium
Daydreaming of a 172. Can it be done?





As most of you know, in 2003 Panerai released a few models whose case was made of Tantalium, the most appealing to me being the PAM 172 produced in 300 pieces only for F series.


"tantalum (redirected from Tantalium)
Also found in: Thesaurus, Medical, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
Related to Tantalium: tantalum, tantalum oxide, Tantalum capacitor
tan·ta·lum (t?n?t?-l?m)
n. Symbol Ta
A very hard, dense, gray metallic element that occurs chiefly in columbite-tantalite and is exceptionally resistant to chemical attack below 150°C. It is used to make electrolytic capacitors for portable electronic and computing devices; superalloys for aircraft, missile, and nuclear reactor parts; filaments; and surgical instruments. Atomic number 73; atomic weight 180.948; melting point 3,017°C; boiling point 5,458°C; specific gravity 16.4; valence 2, 3, 4, 5."



Gen pics:


Panerai172MMA.jpg



Panerai172MMD.jpg



Notice how the case seem to change color in the pics?
Visually tantalium looks pretty similar to titanium, but it has a darker shade of gray and tends to appear lighter or darker depending how the lights hit it.
Besides, unlike titanium, when high-polished it looks closer to stainless steel.


The reasons above made it very difficult to obtain a proper looking case set to be used in a rep or an homage. Afaik only Davidsen released a PAM 172 tantalium version and he worked his way through the color issues using titanium for the darker brushed parts and stainless steel for the lighter colored polished parts.
The result is nice, but not very close to the gen reference. Overall the rep case set looks too light colored but still good.


I know the difference is subtle, but you know how these things go...
I wanted a 172, but I wanted the case to have the right color so I started researching and found a few interesting processes, mostly based on a combination of reaction to chemicals and heat.
I then sourced a couple of titanium case sets to use for experimentation :)


These are the results of the first method I tried. They look nice to me so if I'm lucky I could call it a day already, in any case I'm posting to keep track of my results and to hopefully hear your thoughts and/or advice though I know this is not the most sought after Panerai. :)


Please don't mind the details such as dial, hands, CG and crown. The watch has been built with spares only to test the durability of the case finish.


Work done on the bezel:


I experimented on the titanium bezel to see how close to SS I can make it look. I have a few different polishing compounds and I know from my experience that they may affect metal color when used.
Bezel has been first sanded then hand polished. It still needs work as I did not remove completely the brushed finish before polishing, but this is just a preliminary experiment to check how its color compares to the SS CG after my polishing job so it will do for now.
I used sand paper in increasing grits from 1500 to 5000, then polished it with three different dialux polishing compounds.
Next time I will start with 1000 or 800 grit in order to obtain a perfectly smooth surface before polishing. I expect no need for coarser grits since titanium is softer than steel thus easier to scratch.


Work done on the midcase:


First thing I did was cleaning the case with soap and water, then I rebrushed it to get a crisp finish,
Next it was thoroughly degreased with vinegar (or the likes). You need to remove all grease from the case. After you cleaned it, you better use gloves to touch it.
For safety reasons gloves are required anyway for next step.


The watch was then submerged in boiling water (circa 300 ml) and then a tablespoon of oxyclean powder was added (any other cleaning powder containing sodium perclorate you can find in your country should work). Let it stay there for 30-45 minutes then clean it and carefully dry it with a paper.
After a few cycles I obtained a color close to my goal, but the chemical reaction created some funny color spots (bronze, purple, blue shades) that had to be removed. I found the best way to do it is using a steel wheel on a dremel, but you need to be extra careful and make very light passes with the wheel or you will remove the patina and will have to start again. Done :)


Notes for next try:


The brushing is not as defined as I'd like it and the color is not perfectly uniform. Case must get out of the "bath" darker than desired, in order to allow a final brushing step, or the initial brushing must be coarser.


Now, let's see some pics.
In order for to you to understand better the color difference, I photographed another titanium cased watch I built from parts (call this the poor man's 040 ;)).





























So, I would really appreciate your opinions on this. Do you think it looks ok already or I should better try and find another way around?


Thanks for reading anyway :)
 

mysterio

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Good on you for starting the investigation on how to perfect the tantalium look using titanium. ;) Can't wait for the final product. The initial thing I see is that the bezel edges are still sharp compared to gen (which looks like a rounded edge). It might be on your list of to-dos but just thought I'd mention it just in case. :D
 

ALE7575

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Thanks kilo for this investigation
Nice to see your passion increases more and more
I agree with mysterio about the rounded edges

Regarding the bezel I think you would need a lathe to get a perfect polished finish, mirror and uniform

ALE
 

kilowattore

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Some sandpaper and a few jewelers sticks (and a lot of patience) should do the trick, hand polishing will also help rounding the bezel edges. I did it a few times working on my 205/A :)
A lathe is essential for the opposte task: getting sharp and clean edges.

Right now I'm checking if the patina will tend to wear off as bigebee mentioned on RG.
If it does, I have a second method to try. Should this fail as well, a guy told me there are companies that could do a tantalum plating, although I expect this to be not an option due to the costs involved.

But that's just speculation, for now I keep being positive, I have worn the watch for two days and no visibile fading :)
 

ALE7575

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Another important tell will be the weight and that without solution
Tantalium specific gravity is almost four times the Titanium !!
Damn

ALE
 

Knifemaker

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Bravo on a Great Effort! And Looks Good!!! (Rep left)!

Please allow me to suggest other possibilities for future testing.

These are tricks in the Custom Knife field. We use this on carbon steel, and Damascus, along with stainless steels, and may very well work on the Ti types.

A mixture of nitric acid and water at 50/50 will darken the metal and give it a soft patina. If brushed first, it will remain brushed, but darker.

For ever darker finish, put a touch, (very little) silver nitrite in the solution. In the old days, it is the way we etched the logos on our blades. The silver nitrite ,(when used in heavier amounts) would turn the logo dark grey to black.

Been thinking of either bead blasting a 111 case, and or acid bath, with silver nitrite to try for a pencil lead finish. Aah! another project for me to play with!!!

Another trick, to gain darkness, but must be re-applied from time to time, is after a full cleaning with Alcohol, is brush the metal with a product sold in gun stores called Rig Grease. It is a packing grease, and does a good job of getting into the pores of bead blasted, or brushed steel and other metals. At the same time, it turns it quite a bit darker!
Leave it on uncleaned for at least two hours.

Used it on my Bead Blasted Combat Knives I shipped out for years. Just such a finish won
"Best of Show", and Best Combat Knife, at the Spirit Of Steel, Dallas/ Ft. Worth, 2008.

Knife
 

kilowattore

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Bravo on a Great Effort! And Looks Good!!! (Rep left)!

Please allow me to suggest other possibilities for future testing.

These are tricks in the Custom Knife field. We use this on carbon steel, and Damascus, along with stainless steels, and may very well work on the Ti types.

A mixture of nitric acid and water at 50/50 will darken the metal and give it a soft patina. If brushed first, it will remain brushed, but darker.

For ever darker finish, put a touch, (very little) silver nitrite in the solution. In the old days, it is the way we etched the logos on our blades. The silver nitrite ,(when used in heavier amounts) would turn the logo dark grey to black.

Been thinking of either bead blasting a 111 case, and or acid bath, with silver nitrite to try for a pencil lead finish. Aah! another project for me to play with!!!

Another trick, to gain darkness, but must be re-applied from time to time, is after a full cleaning with Alcohol, is brush the metal with a product sold in gun stores called Rig Grease. It is a packing grease, and does a good job of getting into the pores of bead blasted, or brushed steel and other metals. At the same time, it turns it quite a bit darker!
Leave it on uncleaned for at least two hours.

Used it on my Bead Blasted Combat Knives I shipped out for years. Just such a finish won
"Best of Show", and Best Combat Knife, at the Spirit Of Steel, Dallas/ Ft. Worth, 2008.

Knife

Great info Knife, your input is highly appreciated :)
 
D

d4m.test

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Stop the madness

this is pure beauty

Also, credible sources tell us our friend Rolli will be delivering something special for this build very soon
 

Customcbks

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Nice work, though the weight always bothered me with mine.... Hope they would make an edition using brushed Tungsten. That can achieve almost the same color as tantalum and the weight is similar. :)
 

kilowattore

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Stop the madness

this is pure beauty

Also, credible sources tell us our friend Rolli will be delivering something special for this build very soon

Ok, I admit it. I *might* have heard something about it, and this *might* have fueled my interest for this reference...
The only thing I don't agree is the "very soon" statement, one thing I learnt building watches is that parts NEVER come soon! :lol:
 

ALE7575

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Ok, I admit it. I *might* have heard something about it, and this *might* have fueled my interest for this reference...
The only thing I don't agree is the "very soon" statement, one thing I learnt building watches is that parts NEVER come soon! :lol:

LOL
Good one
ALE
 

Debellum

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Incredibile ! Complimenti [MENTION=64001]kilowattore[/MENTION] ! :)

Junio M.
 

elusive1

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Kilo, what strap is that? I bought a 622 from m2m that came with a very similar looking strap and I've been trying to no avail to find out what it is and who made it.

d30e8c6838a87dabf37d105be8fd3704.jpg


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kilowattore

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Kilo, what strap is that? I bought a 622 from m2m that came with a very similar looking strap and I've been trying to no avail to find out what it is and who made it.

d30e8c6838a87dabf37d105be8fd3704.jpg


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It's a Di Stefano mosaic strap,
 

fredl187

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My interest is growing regarding this thread more and more :) you know what I mean my friend;)
 

Sirlordcomic

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172 is one if my favorites. Ti watches always underrated imo.

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Lizard 1

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What is teh best rep and best dealer to retrieve one of these? I saw DSN has them for $320. I love the blue hands and Ti look.
 

kilowattore

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What is teh best rep and best dealer to retrieve one of these? I saw DSN has them for $320. I love the blue hands and Ti look.

DSN was the only source but he's out of stock afaik. Let me know if my information is outdated please :)
 

Lizard 1

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So, got an email back from DSN. They do in fact have these in stock or rather, available. BUT... He did state that it is not made at a well known factory. Just some small factory.

Not sure how to take that?