Pam 441 help

[ALTL]

Hi I have a PAM 441 with an A7750 movement that I dropped and immediately sent to a watch smith to fix date wheel that looked crooked. When I got it back it started loosing time (as much as 30 min within 3 hours) so I sent it back and I'm being told that there is an issue with the seconds @9. Parts are difficult to find and I'm told that a replacement movement would cost $180. What should I do:
1) Get a new one (perhaps a 441) at + $400 and simply use this one for parts when needed?
2) Alternatively where can I get a replacement a7750 seconds @9 GMT?
Thanks in advance for all your help/advice

 

[mysterio]

I would first attempt to source the A7750 from the TD where you bought the PAM441 from (or a TD that you do business regularly with). When that fails, then you may have to just pick up a new PAM441 (or PAM438 if you were thinking of using the ceramic bracelet at any point in time, hit two birds with one stone). By the way, you probably have not been following the PAM rep scene as much, but the latest PAM441 "Lite" edition (essentially one that uses the Seagull movement than the A7750) is only $328 (368$ for the PAM438).

 

[ALTL]

Thanks Mysterio. I hand seen the lite version (even an offer with both the ceramic bracelet and the asso strap) but on a very fast check at some TDs site today couldn't find it. Also thought that if I went with another A7750 at least I'd have this one for movement parts.

 

[Strodda]

If there's an issue with the geartrain, parts are not difficult to find. The valjoux 7750 parts are compatible.

 

[mysterio]

If there's an issue with the geartrain, parts are not difficult to find. The valjoux 7750 parts are compatible.

Oh I forgot about the third option, have a rep friendly watchsmith look at it.

 

[Strodda]

Oh I forgot about the third option, have a rep friendly watchsmith look at it.

 

[pimlico]

I would first attempt to source the A7750 from the TD where you bought the PAM441 from (or a TD that you do business regularly with). When that fails, then you may have to just pick up a new PAM441 (or PAM438 if you were thinking of using the ceramic bracelet at any point in time, hit two birds with one stone). By the way, you probably have not been following the PAM rep scene as much, but the latest PAM441 "Lite" edition (essentially one that uses the Seagull movement than the A7750) is only $328 (368$ for the PAM438).

Mysterio,

What's your opinion on the A7750 vs. the Seagull movement on the PAM441? Which is better?

 

[mysterio]

Mysterio,

What's your opinion on the A7750 vs. the Seagull movement on the PAM441? Which is better?

From an owner's point of view, I have actually had problems with two A7750 (P9000 plate decorated) based PAMs and one A7750 based Uboat compared to zero for my Seagull based PAMs. But it may purely be luck of the draw as I have more A7750/7753 based PAMs than Seagull based ones. Eventually the movement may fail and the more economic route is to buy a new movement which would probably be similar in cost either way. But the purchase price is significantly lower for the Seagull based PAMs so the total cost of ownership (TCO) is lower for the Seagull based watches.

From a watchsmith's point of view, I've heard the Seagull is harder to source parts for compared to the more widely available A7750. But I am not a watchsmith just a simple owner of PAM reps.

 

[Strodda]

From an owner's point of view, I have actually had problems with two A7750 (P9000 plate decorated) based PAMs and one A7750 based Uboat compared to zero for my Seagull based PAMs. But it may purely be luck of the draw as I have more A7750/7753 based PAMs than Seagull based ones. Eventually the movement may fail and the more economic route is to buy a new movement which would probably be similar in cost either way. But the purchase price is significantly lower for the Seagull based PAMs so the total cost of ownership (TCO) is lower for the Seagull based watches.

From a watchsmith's point of view, I've heard the Seagull is harder to source parts for compared to the more widely available A7750. But I am not a watchsmith just a simple owner of PAM reps.

I've never looked for Seagull parts and from what I've read multiple times is that they don't sell parts. But you can get a new 2555 from Ofrei for $60 shipped, so I guess thats why parts arent available or very necessary. Like you said, with reps, it really is luck of the draw. I've only owned 7750's and they've all been great. I have never purchased a Seagull version, but have held a few... always because they crapped out and were sent to me to fix. On the note about TCO, in the long run the Seagull might not be much cheaper. With a 7750 it would just be the cost of servicing. With a 2555, you need to buy the movement for $60 and then the labor is quite involved even though its just a swap. Because a high majority of PAMs have DWO's, the outer edge of the DW plate has been flattened so the overlay doesnt get stuck and/or rub. So you would need to remove the datewheel/jumper/DW plate and swap them over to the new movement. Then while doing that, because of the Seagull construction, there are two jeweled pinions and a spring in the DW plate that need to be aligned... quite a pain in the butt when I had to do it.

Then there's the issue I've had with the second hand. Both times, they were on so tight that while trying to remove the hand, I pulled the pinion and jewel out of socket. I have zero fact for my assumption, but I wouldnt be surprised if the factories are just using 7750 hands and gluing them on.

 

[mysterio]

I've never looked for Seagull parts and from what I've read multiple times is that they don't sell parts. But you can get a new 2555 from Ofrei for $60 shipped, so I guess thats why parts arent available or very necessary. Like you said, with reps, it really is luck of the draw. I've only owned 7750's and they've all been great. I have never purchased a Seagull version, but have held a few... always because they crapped out and were sent to me to fix. On the note about TCO, in the long run the Seagull might not be much cheaper. With a 7750 it would just be the cost of servicing. With a 2555, you need to buy the movement for $60 and then the labor is quite involved even though its just a swap. Because a high majority of PAMs have DWO's, the outer edge of the DW plate has been flattened so the overlay doesnt get stuck and/or rub. So you would need to remove the datewheel/jumper/DW plate and swap them over to the new movement. Then while doing that, because of the Seagull construction, there are two jeweled pinions and a spring in the DW plate that need to be aligned... quite a pain in the butt when I had to do it.

Then there's the issue I've had with the second hand. Both times, they were on so tight that while trying to remove the hand, I pulled the pinion and jewel out of socket. I have zero fact for my assumption, but I wouldnt be surprised if the factories are just using 7750 hands and gluing them on.

Thanks for putting in your two cents worth Strodda. Much appreciated.

 

[ALE7575]

I appreciate the valuable opinions from Strodda

Anyway, as Strodda says, with 60$ watchsmiths can get a source of parts to repair Seagulls. We have no problems in Spain to get repaired a Seagull by a good reps watchsmith.

I would always prefer the accuracy (of appearance) and the price of Seagull versions. But, as always, this is a taste matter and I respect completely Strodda's opinion like as valid as mine one.

Thanks Strodda for the comments

ALE

 

[ALTL]

Thanks for the advice guys. i have to say that when I dropped the watch I was more concerned with damage to the ceramic case as I had heard horror stories about crack etc. but it held up fine and it was a chest height drop.
one extra question: does 120 usd for an a7750 movement seem like a fair price?
Thanks

 

[Strodda]

I appreciate the valuable opinions from Strodda

Anyway, as Strodda says, with 60$ watchsmiths can get a source of parts to repair Seagulls. We have no problems in Spain to get repaired a Seagull by a good reps watchsmith.

I would always prefer the accuracy (of appearance) and the price of Seagull versions. But, as always, this is a taste matter and I respect completely Strodda's opinion like as valid as mine one.

Thanks Strodda for the comments

ALE

Thanks Ale, and I completely agree. I've never looked but I am hearing a significant price drop for Seagull versions, and like you mentioned they are visually more accurate... especially considering the 7750's balance is on the opposite side. But in the end, yes, the movement choice is all up to what the buyer prefers, there isnt a defined "better". Better is whatever the owner likes.

 

[Strodda]

Thanks for the advice guys. i have to say that when I dropped the watch I was more concerned with damage to the ceramic case as I had heard horror stories about crack etc. but it held up fine and it was a chest height drop.
one extra question: does 120 usd for an a7750 movement seem like a fair price?
Thanks

If its brand new, yes thats a good price. I believe Ive seen them all over ebay for $140-160. The only thing about that is if you're going to use it for a typical P9000 PAM, it will need to be mostly disassembled to remove the chrono parts.

 

[ALTL]

Just as an update, my watch smith was able to fix the movement. Total cost 20 usd, much better than a new movement sourced locally at 180 usd or bought from TD at 120 usd plus shipping costs.