Pam 388/505 V2 issues

[marcogumbo]

It appears a new thread is necessary to address the issues I am seeing in the Pam 388/505 KW V2's.
Heres the first issue should be addressed. It's obvious in the photo, the small decoration plate ( in this photo it is on top of the rotor) and 1 decorative screw-head have come loose from the rotor. The watch is not running at the time of this photo, as one of the screw-heads was lodged in the movement. In the past few days I have seen another 388 and one 505
with the same issue.

Here is a 505 from a member on another forum. You can clearly see the missing decorative screw-heads

 

[pkw2704]

Great just ordered mine:facepalm: hopefully its not widespread

 

[ALE7575]

Thanks marcogumbo for the input
But, please, when you have these kind of issues it would be interesting to know the reaction of the dealer, in case you have contacted it, and the proposed solutions from the dealer
In case you have fixed by yourself, please share the system used

In this way the threads will be more helpful and useful

Thanks in advance
ALE

 

[ALE7575]

Great just ordered mine:facepalm: hopefully its not widespread

Decorated movement in general are getting this kind of issues with glued decoration plates
Fortunately it is not widespread. Bear in mind that at this moment maybe there are more 10000 sold watches with decorated movements (of course it is an estimation).

ALE

 

[marcogumbo]

Thanks marcogumbo for the input
But, please, when you have these kind of issues it would be interesting to know the reaction of the dealer, in case you have contacted it, and the proposed solutions from the dealer
In case you have fixed by yourself, please share the system used

In this way the threads will be more helpful and useful

Thanks in advance
ALE

Ale...I had planned to add more to this thread, including the dealer and response, and my personal fix. I can only do this, however, in between my work which cannot wait.
I bought from Kuvarsit, and Alen has provided excellent customer service and a standing offer to replace the watch. I made the decision to try and fix the watch myself, however, after not being able to contact them after a long period of time, as their email and website were down for at least, I believe, 4 days...emails being returned by their server as undeliverable.
My watch was not running, but fully wound (being jammed with one of the decorative screw-heads that had come loose). I removed the case back, the rotor assembly (just pressed on), the decorative parts, the large decorative plate that I call the P9000 plate (the 3 outer-most screws holding this in place)....which uncovered the 7750 movement, and I was able to dislodge the part. After reassembly, the watch has been running great and keeping good time. A little noisy in the rotor, but not any worse than one of my ancient Seiko divers...and those things are bulletproof.
It seems like they are trying to address the screw issues with the V2, but I had no luck at all with them. I had ordered the Panatime screws and lug bars, and a new screwdriver, and wound up breaking the new screwdriver tip and my only other tip of that size, trying to remove 2 of the screws, and wound up making a new screwdriver in my shop. They have started using a sort of sleeve that fits on the lug ends that go into the watchcase, at least I think they're new, I haven't seen them before. Would appreciate someone else's input on the screws and these sleeve things...tried to get a picture of them.

As I said, Alen at Kuvarsit has been great, once we were able to communicate again, and I still would purchase this watch...BUT, I think the buyer needs to know this stuff and make their own decision. Taking out those ridiculous decorative "trinkets" does not bother me at all, but might be a deciding factor for someone else. I don't know anyone that would have the balls to ask me if my watch is real

 

[lvyelion]

wow that sucks. I was about to pull the triger and get the 388 V2 as my 1st rep, but now I think its better wait a while, maybe getting a 372.

 

[Spboudart]

I've spoke with 2 watchmakers that had to work on those 7750 disguised into P9000, and both have told me to stay away from them, they can only be a BIG BIG source of problem.

 

[marcogumbo]

Didn't notice before, but this 505 is a V1, with the Seagull movement, so the decorative parts issues are common to both versions 1 and 2.

 

[ericb196]

I've spoke with 2 watchmakers that had to work on those 7750 disguised into P9000, and both have told me to stay away from them, they can only be a BIG BIG source of problem.

Probably the 2 watchsmith who worked with my 388 and 312
I had power réserve issues with both

 

[marcogumbo]

I believe this insert piece to be primarily a spacer, so that the lugbar only goes in to the correct distance for the screw to seat properly into the lugbar cutout when tightened. This would be to address the issue of the lugbar assembly coming loose while wearing due to the screws not being seated in the correct place.
In the photo, if you were to divide this sleeve thing into 3 sections, the right side is hollow, of course, and the middle is cutout for the screw to seat, and the left side is solid...to space the lug-bar the correct distance from the inside back of the hole, and putting the screw right where it needs to be.
Hope this makes sense.

 

[ShiroTenshi]

There is another version of the P9000 movement, using a seagull movement, probably a better choice.

 

[marcogumbo]

wow that sucks. I was about to pull the triger and get the 388 V2 as my 1st rep, but now I think its better wait a while, maybe getting a 372.

lvy...just my opinion here, but like I said before, I would still purchase this watch, although I couldn't recommend it as a 1st rep purchase to someone else. There are too many other watches where it is a pretty good bet you would never have a problem with. If you read Ale's Pam Reference Guide there are plenty of watches that he has considered Super-Reps for quite a while, and I would bet that anyone on here would agree that your first should be one of those...where the issues have been addressed and corrected over years, by the dealers and factories and experienced forum members like him and many others. Also check out the dealers best-sellers....they sell well for a reason.
I love to mess with stuff like this, and I love the rep game, although I am very new to it.
Give this a little while to get the issues fixed...but definitely get it, because it is an awesome watch.

 

[nielsen]

I just bought the 505 and it is stunning. Now I'm curious to know whether I have the Seagull or rep. 7750 movement. How do I tell?

 

[Mickey Padge]

I think the 505 is Seagull only, balance wheel will be located at 6

 

[marcogumbo]

I just bought the 505 and it is stunning. Now I'm curious to know whether I have the Seagull or rep. 7750 movement. How do I tell?

Seagull at 6....that's how I remember.

 

[pkw2704]

do you think a knock could have cause this problem or just poor gluing?

 

[ALE7575]

There is another version of the P9000 movement, using a seagull movement, probably a better choice.

Hi Shiro
The old version V1 was fitted with Seagull, new versions V2 are fitted with A7750

ALE

I just bought the 505 and it is stunning. Now I'm curious to know whether I have the Seagull or rep. 7750 movement. How do I tell?

Hi Nielsen
Seagull has balance wheel centered @6
A7750 has balance wheel @11
This is the main difference. And the Seagull has even more noisy rotor.

ALE

 

[ALE7575]

In order to not get confusion it would be interesting to clarify that we are dealing here with two different issues.

1-Decorated movements with glued false plates or bridges.
This is a general problem of all current decotared movements. You can get this problem from every decorated movement which you buy. Indeed all them from all makers have problems in some percentage. We will have to live with this problem until makers fix decoration plates with screws

2-Issues with lug screws in Radiomir
This is also a general problem in Radiomirs well known for all Rdiomir fans, even in gens
Unfortunately this issue is more serious at least in first batches of PAM 388 and PAM 505 from KW.
KW says that this problem is already solved in current batches of V2, but we are not sure of that.
I have never seen the little sleeve indicated by marcogumbo and I really don’t understand clearly its mission.
I hope that it is not the only improvement introduced by KW to solve the lug screw problem.
We will wait for more inputs about this matter

ALE

 

[marcogumbo]

do you think a knock could have cause this problem or just poor gluing?

pkw....the easy answer is both.
Even the poorest glue job, or glue, will hold a small part in place until there is a certain amount of force applied to dislodge it.
But it is pretty certain, that if your parts are falling off and rattling around loose inside of your watch just from shipping, you need to address your gluing process AND your glue quality.

 

[MoreCowBell]

In order to not get confusion it would be interesting to clarify that we are dealing here with two different issues.

1-Decorated movements with glued false plates or bridges.
This is a general problem of all current decorated movements. You can get this problem from every decorated movement which you buy. Indeed all them from all makers have problems in some percentage. We will have to live with this problem until makers fix decoration plates with screws



ALE

It's very helpful that this issue with the glued false plates/bridges is being discussed because it allows members, like myself, to make a better informed decision before making a purchase.

Ofcourse, while the problems caused by the screws/plates coming loose are a real possibility i'm guessing that in reality the number of failures is actually quite small (though not insignificant!).

I was considering purchasing a model with fake decorated movement and glued plates but i'm finding it increasingly more difficult to justify the purchase when there is a known design flaw. If the flaw was merely aesthetic then it would be a much less serious "issue" but when it's a physical flaw it makes the possibility of mechanical failure just that....a possibility.

How feasible is it to actually screw down the plates/bridges instead of using glue? Is the movement itself making it tough to find a place for the screws? Is there an increased expense involved that is cost prohibitive for the factory?

The watches with the decorated movement look terrific but I think i'm in the camp of waiting for these to have screws instead of glue....

And in the meantime, i'll look at other watches like the 372, 390 and 127 as my next purchases....