New FGD/Rolli Dial Project A Series 002/009

[rolli]

here are three genuine 009a pictures,

see the curvature of the numeral nine.

this is the real gen a-serie curvature.

genuine 009a was made with 1000 pieces. that means 1000 dials and that means
1000 times the indices filled by hand with a dosing machine with an injection and needle,

in my large 009a picture archive folder are circa 500 images and you see two different and sometimes three different 9 curvatures.

note: all cameras have lenses , the shape of the lenses are like a fish eye, and bring a lot of distortions and curvatures on the photos, also the typical fish eye effect,
the result is that all objects which are more at the edge area of the lense during the camera shot ( numeral 9 ),
get through the lense fish eye shape a complessed distortion.


rolli

 

[rolli]

one click on the photos and they will be enlarged.

rolli

 

[rolli]

here are more pictures.

http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/review-fgds-and-162604

rolli

 

[thefever]

Excellent! Can't wait for the pre-v offerings.

 

[rolli]

preV will come, but not so fast,

first comes another dial model.

regards

rolli

 

[PeteM]

I am not sure what has been said on RG so I cannot comment...

and without getting into it I will say a few things about PAMs from this era...and I must admit is one reason I love PAMs so much..

If you say you know all PAM dials from the Cartier and Vendome era then you really dont understand PAMs or thier history.... it si that simple and that is why PAMs are such a great brand to get into...

Just when you think you understand a detail you find a complete contradiction....

If you take TST dials generally ... on any model.... you have to factor in so many variables that you can never be certain of any conclusion...

For example... the first Cartier models produced were the 209 and 210...these had the new Cartier case and CG but the 209 for example used the 5218-201a dial... but what Cartier did was remove the PREV serif and use a new font.... so what you see if basically a PreV dial in a PreA case set.... moving on from that there has been PreV dials found in PreA cases ... but again the difference is the serif...

OP was at the time of its takeover in disarray.... it had been mismanaged and Cartier needed to egt a new range of models coming out to ensure a revenue and return...as they started to take over work shops and offices they kept finding spares of all sorts from OP..so rather than throw them away they used them and/or adapted them

Dials was the most common part to be adapted and this was mainly the PreV dials having serif removed and replaced with new font then lumed and put in all sorts of models... then as they ran out they started making their own dials with new coinage.... in addition many staff were laid off and new staff and locations used to produce these watches and more importantly the dials....

At that time all dials were hand lumed in batches... it might be 30 one day and the following week another 100...there was no rule

The lume was applied using a stylogarph by a lumer.... these were filled with a hand mixed lume... so from that you need to factor in variations not only in the lume mix but also in its application...

A sausage lume is applied in a stamped dial so the markers and numbers are indented or coined... the lumer applies the lume and depending on the mix the way the lume sits in the dial markers can vary... it can stand proud, it can sink it can do any number of things depending on its mix and thickness etc... Lume is mixed with lume powders and varnish... its like mixing a paint if you like....

You then mix it the work ethic of many OP staff at the time and the uninterest some showed due to staffing issues etc or how when it moved from PreA ie 6500/6502 cases to later A series there was a lot of changes going on this effected what you might recieve from a new ordered PAM...

Its a bit like when you look at fat and thin PreV dials..... some people think this was because the dials were different... that aint the case... it was because of the lume..the dials had the same coinage... but some lumers kept the lume in the indented markers and some let it spread to the edges... this gives the effect of a dial marker looking fat or thin or a detail on say a 3 may vary because of this same reason... the way its lumed can make the lume look a completely different shape... especially on tails and where a lume line changes direction... it can look sharp or it can look rough and blurred...

You can bring out all sorts of examples even going to G & H transitional ... but it is most noatble on PreV..PreA Transitional and PreA to A Transitional and on into A to B transitional

The variables go on and on in this era... wrong case back, wrong hands, wrong lume blah blah...

There are no rules as such just guidelines... I have seen true Risti experts categorically state a particular detail and further down the line someone has appeared with a contradiction to that detail that can clearly be proven..

I also have many many references pics of TST dials unmounted and all of them vary in some way or another if you really get down to the micro details....

I am not saying anyone is right or anyone is wrong ...what I am saying is that not one point of view can be, within reason, absolutely correct...

That is the beauty of PAMs especially at the time in its history or indeed going up to the G series when changes really were made..however even now there are still ambiguities not as many nor as far reaching but enough to keep an interest...


Then add things as have been mentioned like lighting, cameras, lens etc etc and you really are stirring the pot of intrigue

 

[mir36]

:thumbsup:Amazing perspective Pete! Thanks for sharing.

 

[rolli]

also from me peteM , a big complement for that fine distinctive explanation and assessment.

man thanks

rolli

 

[COLDI]

Rolli - It is good seeing you over here mate. I hope you stick around. I need to get one of these dials (eventually lol). :cheers:

 

[rolli]

new price for the dial with hands

rolli

 

[GPFModDep]

Very eloquently said Pete!

The culture (and chaos) at Panerai during this period is captured in the transitional models and for many of us (myself included) is where I find the pure , uncluttered essence of Panerai design....and the urge to build!

Off the shelf new cartel reps are nice and of course improving all the time , but personally the new models just seem to be re-hashing the same classic design and in many instances , replicating the transitional models themselves.
Oddly particular as it may seem , I would rather have a copy of the original , than a copy of a copy of the original !!

Rolli and I created these dials after endless hours of studying and research , all driven by a passion to create unique reproduction dials (and hands) in OEM standards as close to the original as viable. I assure you no expense was spared and we could not have learnt more if we had gone to a Swiss dial school !

If these are a success then the plan is to manufacturer more dials from this era of many models that have never been attempted / not done well enough to date.

I know I'm excited by what's in advanced development stage that's for sure.

All the best

GPF (FGD)

 

[ALE7575]

Thanks GPF (FGD) for posting here
We all are looking forward to your projects
We will support you from this forum

ALE

 

[sleeper]

Nice to hear from fgd on these, fingers crossed on a 205a from them.

 

[PeteM]

Thanks R and S for the kind acknowledgement


TBH it is a little irritating to see some of the comments criticsing this and I dont know how they can say some things they do...

Yes it is expensive in rep maker terms but in terms of reproducing some of the most historic and beautiful dials made by OP these are great value...and the more we take these to our hearts the less expnsive they will become...its simple economics


I can only imagine the hours of research spent identifying what was needed for these dials it is simply mind boggling..

And that alone deserves so much credit and respect to you both...

But to then not only study and identify those gen details but go forward and find and identify suitable professional Swiss watch builders to create these dials takes the whole idea of reps to a level that is so high that rep makers will, I am sure, never reach..

It is without doubt that this is an 'Armstrong' moment to see these and witness what your hard work and time has brought forth to us...

What it does is not only give us an almost identical copy of a great dial but also opens a new future or possible future that can come to us in the PAM rep world... that thought or possibility alone is so exciting...

The new PAM reps we see being churned out are good and that there is no doubt but to see these dials is what this game was always about to me... the reps from the makers shade in comaprison IMHO

If there is anyone that cannot genuinely see that and more importantly understand that ... then I know without doubt that they are simply the owners and wearers of PAMs (gens or reps) and nothing more..

 

[ALE7575]

Thanks Pete for your kind cooperation here and very good explanations
Appreciate

ALE

 

[rolli]

:

 

[hed1]

Can you reattach or put up a link to these pictures? Cheers

here are three genuine 009a pictures,

see the curvature of the numeral nine.

this is the real gen a-serie curvature.

genuine 009a was made with 1000 pieces. that means 1000 dials and that means
1000 times the indices filled by hand with a dosing machine with an injection and needle,

in my large 009a picture archive folder are circa 500 images and you see two different and sometimes three different 9 curvatures.

note: all cameras have lenses , the shape of the lenses are like a fish eye, and bring a lot of distortions and curvatures on the photos, also the typical fish eye effect,
the result is that all objects which are more at the edge area of the lense during the camera shot ( numeral 9 ),
get through the lense fish eye shape a complessed distortion.


rolli

 

[rolli]

i have no idea why the attached 3 pics doesn't work to see them.

i tried it many times with the picture manager, but it doesn't work.

rolli

Can you reattach or put up a link to these pictures? Cheers

 

[thom]

wow,
super top notch dial,
compliment Rolli

Thom

 

[projectologist]

Great effort and seems to be a quality product...yes there is the subject of 9 but I think it is quite acceptable and in terms of finish and lume color, I think it is by far the best rep T dial I've seen. Having said that, I tend to agree with RG folks on the procedural side of things: if you are offering these for sale to the members (and you are), why not do it in the manner that is generally prescribed to doing sales on the forums? List them up with clearly stated price in sales section, specify quantities you have, do first pay first serve kind of arrangement and then everyone is happy, and it is transparent and fair to all involved. May be I am not getting something but I think it would have allowed you to avoid getting hammered for pushing back door sales etc. and would def give you better exposure and possibly larger customer base, no? With the asking price tag, it would be prudent for the mods to watch these carefully since we have seen people screwing members over for much smaller amounts, and then everyone cries wolf etc..you are a solid guy known on some forums but say on RG this is not the case and many have not clue as to who you are etc... Just saying. PS: I am in for anything. PreV or preA if done to same level...keep us posted!

Thank you for the voice of reason. You hit the nail on the head... I was just explaining the rules at RepGeek to Rolli and why they exist. And in more than one PM, I explained to him how placing an ad or starting a vendor's section of his own whould present his work in a better and more professional way.

I'm just a volunteer moderator at RG, I don't make policy. And while I don't always agree with every single policy at RG, I do believe the "no back door sales policy" is a reasonable one. Rolli's product deserves to be offered to the community the best way it can be presented.

That aside, I have rolli's dial on it's way from the EU as I type this. It will probably go into this build that currently houses the Pre-A version of the 002/009 dial...