New Asian Panerai handwind mov'ts

[babola]

This is just as FYI to the community and res of the Pam rep brotherhood...before anyone gets excited, the "Eta based" mov'ts listed below are actually Asian. Nice fit and finish but NOT Swiss ETA 6497 mov'ts, they are all Asian clones.

viewtopic.php?f=196&t=46420&p=407469&#p407469

I wish dealers refrain from pompous "Swiss" made statements and advertising in the future. :x

cheers,
babola

 

[tootall]

This is just as FYI to the community and res of the Pam rep brotherhood...before anyone gets excited, the "Eta based" mov'ts listed below are actually Asian. Nice fit and finish but NOT Swiss ETA 6497 mov'ts, they are all Asian clones.

viewtopic.php?f=196&t=46420&p=407469&#p407469

I wish dealers refrain from pompous "Swiss" made statements and advertising in the future. :x

cheers,
babola

Seems those preimuim prices that people were paing for Asian dagger movements were unwarranted. I am talking about the ones where people said things like "they are not making these anymore hence my $200 markup" etc.

Furthermore, thanks babola for looking out for the community. Dealers have been doing this same mis-representation of movements for a while. It is time they stop. However 20:1 the dealers will say it's the factories fault.

 

[Xaval]

Thanks fir the heads up babola. Dealers should also feel this "swiss" movement crunch also... no demand! Too much toxic clone crap. Prices continue to hike and it´s insane imo.

 

[guru]

Thx for posting, I do not care which fault it is.

I think I like the premium one for 90 USD. I believe you get a good value for that money.

 

[babola]

And by the way, that pricing of so called 'ETA based' mov'ts is unwarranted, I agree with Tootall, although I'd go further here and call them - rediculous.

The more I think about all this the more I believe it's all to do with the latest games rep factories play these days in lieu of genuine Swiss ETA 6497-1 ebauches they used to mod and decorate to match the Panerai mov'ts finish. These are now obviously long gone, so every time you see a mov't ETA stamped and signed, called Swiss ETA by either a dealer or disti - be extra cautious and look for other tell-tale signs of an Asian ETA-clone.

I would normaly say - this circus has to stop! ...but this time I don't think it wont matter a slightest bit, remember the white-lies episode with Josh and Andrew?
As a rep comunity we can try to do our best in identifying these overpriced and mis-advertised rogues and educating the enthusiasts and rep collectors, but we can forget about going against the rep manufacturers and dealers together on this matter.

cheers,
babola

 

[drfcfighter]

Aren't those "ETA based" ones what we used to call "Swinese?" basically Asian franken with Swiss parts? As for the premium Asians, I heard from reputable watchsmiths like littlehero of Korea that the Asian movements are just as sturdy as long as they are well maintained and serviced from the getgo, and that the ETA bandwagon is overrated. Vaccum also said similar things. I trust them both in their movement eye expertise. Eitherway, I'm off this bandwagon.

 

[babola]

Aren't those "ETA based" ones what we used to call "Swinese?" basically Asian franken with Swiss parts? As for the premium Asians, I heard from reputable watchsmiths like littlehero of Korea that the Asian movements are just as sturdy as long as they are well maintained and serviced from the getgo, and that the ETA bandwagon is overrated. Vaccum also said similar things. I trust them both in their movement eye expertise. Eitherway, I'm off this bandwagon.

No not "Swinesse" nor "Swasian", those are now long gone, i.e. not being manufactured anymore. These are supposedly slightly better (I'm talking about the $250-280 priced ones, ETA clones with fake ETA logo and markings stamped on the baseplate)

I hear you about the good quality of these new Asian ETA clones, but I don't buy into the "ETA bandwagon is overrated"...that's just silly point to make IMO, good watchsmith or not. Asian mov't will always be an Asian mov't, full stop.

And wait until one of these high-beat 6497-2 Asian ETA clones need a spare part...will you be then spending $250-280 on a replacement Asian ETA mov't just to get the part you need...I know I won't, thank you very much!

babola

 

[drfcfighter]

No not "Swinesse" nor "Swasian", those are now long gone, i.e. not being manufactured anymore. These are supposedly slightly better (I'm talking about the $250-280 priced ones, ETA clones with fake ETA logo and markings stamped on the baseplate)

I hear you about the good quality of these new Asian ETA clones, but I don't buy into the "ETA bandwagon is overrated"...that's just silly point to make IMO, good watchsmith or not. Asian mov't will always be an Asian mov't, full stop.

And wait until one of these high-beat 6497-2 Asian ETA clones need a spare part...will you be then spending $250-280 on a replacement Asian ETA mov't just to get the part you need...I know I won't, thank you very much!

babola

OIC, thanks for the clarification. Yep, $280 is just too damn much for Asian, especially when you can get gen ETA w/o plating for about $140 shipped still from Ofrei's.

I guess I'll stick to the "Lite" editions IF I get back on the bandwagon, so that if a movement busts, I can just replace it for cheap, if that. Gen Hamilton's are looking better everyday right about now.

 

[Time4Direct]

OIC, thanks for the clarification. Yep, $280 is just too damn much for Asian, especially when you can get gen ETA w/o plating for about $140 shipped still from Ofrei's.

Well using Babalo's theory then these too must be clones!
If anyone had taken the time to ask rather than just assumed.
I would have explained how we obtain these .
We buy base ETA movements and modify them in Bangkok with Asian back plates and swan neck assembly hence the description 'ETA BASED"

This is the way they have always been made and called swiss outside of SOPOD there has never been a 100% Swiss movement with swan neck

 

[babola]

We buy base ETA movements and modify them in Bangkok with Asian back plates and swan neck assembly hence the description 'ETA BASED"

Not true, and whoever has been feeding you these white lies is basicaly lying to you. The movements you call "ETA based" are full 100% clones, I've seen them and worked with them. So far these latest clones have been 6497-2 21.6kbh clones of the genuine ETA high beat mov'ts. They're nice in fit and finish but genuine Eta-based they ain't, apart from the fact that every bit of Soprod modded 6497-2 movement is cloned in rep factory. You could help here to confirm if these are really 6497-1 or 6497-2.

You can call this "babola's theory" as you did above, or whatever else, I don't care, but I won't stay quiet on your smear stories about "ETA mov'ts with Asian backplates nd swan neck" to the rest of the community here.

 

[drfcfighter]

Well using Babalo's theory then these too must be clones!
If anyone had taken the time to ask rather than just assumed.
I would have explained how we obtain these .
We buy base ETA movements and modify them in Bangkok with Asian back plates and swan neck assembly hence the description 'ETA BASED"

This is the way they have always been made and called swiss outside of SOPOD there has never been a 100% Swiss movement with swan neck

Are the ETA movements you get for the "ETA based" 21.8kbph to begin with? Do they come with flared spokes? If so, they are supposed to be 6497-2's as gen ETA 6497-1's are 17.8kbph with straight spokes. From what I understand, if this is the case, you are getting clones for sure, as the gen 6497-2's with higher bph w/ flared spokes are significantly more expensive than what these high beat movements are going for in the rep market.

As for anyone taking the time to ask rather than just assuming, like you say, well, here I am taking the time to ask you: do these "ETA based" come with higher beats and flared spokes? Also, what beat is your Asian Premium movement? That one looks great and I understand them to be pretty sturdy.

 

[Time4Direct]

What is not true?
We buy them in basic form are you saying that the movements from Oferi and Cousins are Asain clones then?
These are hybrid so have many spurious parts but that has always been the case even with the so called "Swiss"
I don't really understand what you are disputing . No one least of all me is saying that these are 100% Swiss ETA.
In fact there is a real possibility that the original movements from Oferi and Cousins have never seen Switzerland and been made at an ETA factory in Asia
Whether that makes them any less ETA is a matter for you to decide but they are manufactured by ETA regardless

Also to answer the question they are low beat of course original high beat 6497-2 cost around $400 in basic form and are difficult to get in any quantity.
Flared spokes are used to simulate the Panerai movement the complete swan neck assembly is Asian but I already said that I thought!

As for being over priced just buy the base ETA from Oferi then and modify it your self if you think there are substantial savings to be made I think you will find it is more expensive though

 

[drfcfighter]

OIC, so the flared spokes are add-on after you get the base? Is this is mod you know for sure are done at the factory after they get the straight spoke base movements?

 

[Time4Direct]

OIC, so the flared spokes are add-on after you get the base? Is this is mod you know for sure are done at the factory after they get the straight spoke base movements?

These don't come from a factory like this we do them ourselves in Bangkok
The fact is what original swiss part remain varies as to what Panerai like parts we have available to exchange
In a perfect world we will change all but the front plate and some of the gearing and mainspring assembly

Next time we are doing a run of these I will photograph the the operation it will be easier than trying to explain to you

 

[drfcfighter]

These don't come from a factory like this we do them ourselves in Bangkok
The fact is what original swiss part remain varies as to what Panerai like parts we have available to exchange
In a perfect world we will change all but the front plate and some of the gearing and mainspring assembly

Next time we are doing a run of these I will photograph the the operation it will be easier than trying to explain to you

Wow, I'm pretty impressed and excited. If you're directly modding the faceplates, etc., that means you will directly have our inputs on the details of the mods themselves, which means you guys may potentially have the best output and sales if the OCD people on the boards are satisfied. For an example, Littlehero from Korea mods nearly perfect PAM dials AND movement plate fonts, and people drool over those.

 

[babola]

First time these so called hybrids hit the scene in mid 2006 (aka swinese, swasian etc), I had a well known rep collector and watchmaker in HongKong to take one appart and look at the parts in detail, after which he confirmed th emov't is 100% Asian, and no base ETA ebauches were used to produce them. He did say the movements were well finished and put together. A collector and watchmaker from Europe, who is active on RWG, tried replacing number of parts between his genuine ETA mov't, inlcuding winding gears, mainspring barrels, minute and hour gears - NONE fitted interchangeably!

The rep community accepted these as hybrids, at best, and never considered them as Swiss ETA or ETA based. In the beginning of 2008 you could still buy those for $120 on sites like Trustytime.com and pam111.com. Rep mov't makers have had quite a good run with these movt's in the past, as many have sold under fals pretense as Swiss ETA, as that's what they were advertised as. So you have to understand our disbelief, when you come here and claim you have a new version of these 'hybrid' ETA movements, priced at 130% more than original hybrids from 2006-2008 era. We all know gen ETA movt's have gone up in pricing due to availability issues, but to ask for a "mish-mash" mov't that much is really brave.

Something is worth as much as someone is willing to pay for, we all know that by now...but this is only true if that someone is made to believe he's buying something he really isn't.

 

[Time4Direct]

Yes but don't confuse front plates with dial plates . There is no mods needed to the movement front plate as its not seen at all we modify the bridges and the gears and assembly you can see only . The other parts remain original ETA
Babola if you look you will see the movement you are referring to as the $130 for $90 this is 100% Asain and most likely as good as the ETA it replicates . I have not said anything about a new version of the ETA hybrid we have been using this same system of doing it for years . If you don't value the fact that the base movement is ETA then the Premium Asian is the one to buy at $90 makes no difference to me I have as much profit in that as the ETA based movement and a far more available supply

As for the guy on RWG you are right about the mainspring and the winding gears thats why we leave them original you are wrong about the Hour gear second drive though these will interchange

 

[babola]

Sorry, but I'm just not buying into this bull.

Good luck.

 

[tootall]

These don't come from a factory like this we do them ourselves in Bangkok
The fact is what original swiss part remain varies as to what Panerai like parts we have available to exchange
In a perfect world we will change all but the front plate and some of the gearing and mainspring assembly

Next time we are doing a run of these I will photograph the the operation it will be easier than trying to explain to you

I for one would love to see this.

 

[drfcfighter]

These don't come from a factory like this we do them ourselves in Bangkok
The fact is what original swiss part remain varies as to what Panerai like parts we have available to exchange
In a perfect world we will change all but the front plate and some of the gearing and mainspring assembly

Next time we are doing a run of these I will photograph the the operation it will be easier than trying to explain to you

I for one would love to see this.

same here. I'll keep an open mind until proven otherwise. I still think the whole ETA movements are overrated tho. At the end of the day, it's a f'n swatch. We're all far past the times when one bought a solid movement watch, one only, to pass down generations. Quartz killed all that. Rep collecting in my opinion is really just a man-fashion-jewerly hobby. It's not like we all collect 100's of VC's, Pateks, etc.

If any of you are, are you adopting by any chance?