Is it just me or have there been a lot of cases lately of apparently Asian movements being advertised as Swiss on the FS forum? The answer, lately, has been exactly the same every time: the dealer said it was Swiss.
This is a growing concern with me. I have a feeling that some of the dealers are taking advantage of this "sunset" of the availability of Swiss movements and are claiming Asian-based movements to be Swiss-based. Once the ETA movements are no longer available, this should be less of an issue, but right now there is a very large grey area for dealers to walk in, IMO. Let's be honest, the "Little White Lies" thread should be enough evidence to give anyone pause about simply accepting what a dealer (ANY dealer) says without any investigation/education on the buyer's part. If they are willing to advertise mineral crystals as "synthetic sapphire" and Seagull movements as "Lemania", why would they hesitate to mis-label Asian movements as Swiss? We've all seen the threads about the UPO's coming with Asian clones of the 2824-2s in them, too. With the improvement of the Asian 6497s, it's getting harder and harder to distinguish between the two. Having said that, let's talk about some of the common statements that we always see in the vast majority of those discussions:
"They are ALL Asian movements." -- Well, yes and no. They all have *some* Asian parts, specifically the Panerai decorated/shaped bridges and the dagger or needle shaped regulator with the swan neck adjuster. However, some of these movements use Asian (Seagull?) 6497 movements as the base for these new parts and some use real ETA/Unitas movements as the foundation for these new parts.
"The gen Panerai movements have flared spokes on the balance wheel and THEY'RE Swiss." -- Very true. However, the gen movements are 6497-2 movements. The 6497-2 uses a higher beat rate of 21.6K beats per hour, versus the 18K bph of the 6497-1. I have never seen a real ETA 6497-1 with a flared spoke balance wheel, however I'm not a watchmaker, so I would hesitate to try to say that there has never been such a creature. The A6497 movements mimic the higher beat rate of the 6497-2, thus it makes sense that the Asian movements use a flared spoke balance wheel.
"The Incabloc shock protection system means it's Asian/The Novodiac shock protection system means it's Swiss." -- Again, yes and no. I would say that axiom holds true for *MOVEMENTS USING A SWAN NECK REGULATOR" about 99% of the time. We've all seen the square bridged 6497s with the graffiti style "PANERAIPANERAIPANERAI" decoration glued on top of the stock bridges with no swan neck using the Incabloc. Why? Because those movements are 100% ETA 6497s that simply have some Asian made foil plates glued on top of the ETA bridges. I have even seen some ETA movements with the swan neck that used the Incabloc system, I believe these were some of the earliest Swiss swan neck movements made available to us. **I have never seen an ETA movement that had the Incabloc system AND flared balance wheel spokes.** IMO, this is 100% safe to call an Asian movement. Again, I'm not watchsmith, so I may be wrong. I can only speak to what I have / have not seen.
"Is Swiss better? / Is Asian worse?" -- This is subjective, IMO. The big downside with the Asian movements, is that no one seems to be able to source replacement parts for them, should something need replacing. What that means, is that you would have to buy a complete movement and transplant parts from the working movement to the non-working one. The saving grace for Asian movements is that you can buy a complete Asian movement with the CdG decoration and a dagger swan neck for about half the cost of a completely undecorated ETA 6497. Some good aspects of the Asian movements is that they are more visually accurate to the gen movements than the ETA 6497s we get in our reps are. They also beat at the correct rate, instead of the slower beat rate of the ETA movements we get.
I will try to scrounge up some pictures so that we can have a discussion about the visual clues that help us all differentiate between the ETA 6497 and the Asian 6497.
This should get us started, though.
Please feel free to share your thoughts/findings/opinions. Like I've said several times throughout this post, I'm not an authority on this stuff, and I am perfectly capable of being wrong.
This is a growing concern with me. I have a feeling that some of the dealers are taking advantage of this "sunset" of the availability of Swiss movements and are claiming Asian-based movements to be Swiss-based. Once the ETA movements are no longer available, this should be less of an issue, but right now there is a very large grey area for dealers to walk in, IMO. Let's be honest, the "Little White Lies" thread should be enough evidence to give anyone pause about simply accepting what a dealer (ANY dealer) says without any investigation/education on the buyer's part. If they are willing to advertise mineral crystals as "synthetic sapphire" and Seagull movements as "Lemania", why would they hesitate to mis-label Asian movements as Swiss? We've all seen the threads about the UPO's coming with Asian clones of the 2824-2s in them, too. With the improvement of the Asian 6497s, it's getting harder and harder to distinguish between the two. Having said that, let's talk about some of the common statements that we always see in the vast majority of those discussions:
"They are ALL Asian movements." -- Well, yes and no. They all have *some* Asian parts, specifically the Panerai decorated/shaped bridges and the dagger or needle shaped regulator with the swan neck adjuster. However, some of these movements use Asian (Seagull?) 6497 movements as the base for these new parts and some use real ETA/Unitas movements as the foundation for these new parts.
"The gen Panerai movements have flared spokes on the balance wheel and THEY'RE Swiss." -- Very true. However, the gen movements are 6497-2 movements. The 6497-2 uses a higher beat rate of 21.6K beats per hour, versus the 18K bph of the 6497-1. I have never seen a real ETA 6497-1 with a flared spoke balance wheel, however I'm not a watchmaker, so I would hesitate to try to say that there has never been such a creature. The A6497 movements mimic the higher beat rate of the 6497-2, thus it makes sense that the Asian movements use a flared spoke balance wheel.
"The Incabloc shock protection system means it's Asian/The Novodiac shock protection system means it's Swiss." -- Again, yes and no. I would say that axiom holds true for *MOVEMENTS USING A SWAN NECK REGULATOR" about 99% of the time. We've all seen the square bridged 6497s with the graffiti style "PANERAIPANERAIPANERAI" decoration glued on top of the stock bridges with no swan neck using the Incabloc. Why? Because those movements are 100% ETA 6497s that simply have some Asian made foil plates glued on top of the ETA bridges. I have even seen some ETA movements with the swan neck that used the Incabloc system, I believe these were some of the earliest Swiss swan neck movements made available to us. **I have never seen an ETA movement that had the Incabloc system AND flared balance wheel spokes.** IMO, this is 100% safe to call an Asian movement. Again, I'm not watchsmith, so I may be wrong. I can only speak to what I have / have not seen.
"Is Swiss better? / Is Asian worse?" -- This is subjective, IMO. The big downside with the Asian movements, is that no one seems to be able to source replacement parts for them, should something need replacing. What that means, is that you would have to buy a complete movement and transplant parts from the working movement to the non-working one. The saving grace for Asian movements is that you can buy a complete Asian movement with the CdG decoration and a dagger swan neck for about half the cost of a completely undecorated ETA 6497. Some good aspects of the Asian movements is that they are more visually accurate to the gen movements than the ETA 6497s we get in our reps are. They also beat at the correct rate, instead of the slower beat rate of the ETA movements we get.
I will try to scrounge up some pictures so that we can have a discussion about the visual clues that help us all differentiate between the ETA 6497 and the Asian 6497.
This should get us started, though.
Please feel free to share your thoughts/findings/opinions. Like I've said several times throughout this post, I'm not an authority on this stuff, and I am perfectly capable of being wrong.
