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Is this arrogant or wat ??
- Thread starter moggio
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Pugwash said:
I must disagree. If copying something were easy, that is to say, so exact that experts can't tell the difference, this entire forum would be clear of the "who has the best __________ REP ( fill in blank). An MBW would be just another rep.
I would say that an artist has 2 seperate qualities, 1 Imagination and 2 ability one without the other is useless. Let us substitute Eye for detail with Imagination, it still must have Ability to create a "perfect" replica. hence the desire for the MBW.
Let's use another analogy instead of watches, music. the writer pens the words but its the Singer that makes it music. If another singer sings the song it is still music and everyone has their favorite version of the song. 40 years go by and yet another singer sings the song, the critics say " it sounds just like the original" and love it. Same song, same tone, same inflection and the singer is hailed as an artist, not a "counterfiter".
We all, everyone of us on this forum have an eye for detail, but with a few exceptions ( Joe & ziggy come to mind) we all lack the ABILITY to create a perfect Rep. You are a FANTASTIC photographer, even after reading your step by step I'll take your hand and walk you thru this tutorial, I still cannot take watch photos that look even half way good. Ability is the key to art.
But again Pug, this is just my opinion.
Great post by the way. I mean I disagree (shocker) but your point is well thought out. Now, on to my counterpoint.amfiskadoz said:
An artist without imagination is a craftsman, and the world has need for a lot of them. Counterfeiters are craftsmen at the top of their game, but they're not artists.
An MBW is just another rep, albeit a very good one. Would I call modders artists? Well, some of the time yes and some of the time no. Modders are by and large skilled craftsmen with highly evolved skills and abilities, and I have an utmost respect for their talents but I don't consider most of what they do art. Sure, there are exceptions, but I'm not going to list examples in case a modder believes I should have chosen his work over anothers as art.
Great discussion and something dear to my own heart.
I have to side with Pug on this one!
As a young man I was a bulletin painter.. specifically billboards.. we would get artwork, and then we would make paper patterns called cartoons to enlarge the art.. the goal was to make an accurate copy, huge in size. As most boards were hand painted on site, one could not step back to take an overall view.. so one had to envision the result whilst painting, best learned from a mentor, or by practice.. there are subtleties involved that are counter intuitive.. i got to the point where i could turn out a superb copy, while at the same time having pretty much zero by way of artistic ability.. some parts became very interesting, as when working in 110 farenheit and not being able to blend the paint.. so a faux blend was done.. and there are not instructions for that process to my knowledge..
Life is Good!
Klink
As a young man I was a bulletin painter.. specifically billboards.. we would get artwork, and then we would make paper patterns called cartoons to enlarge the art.. the goal was to make an accurate copy, huge in size. As most boards were hand painted on site, one could not step back to take an overall view.. so one had to envision the result whilst painting, best learned from a mentor, or by practice.. there are subtleties involved that are counter intuitive.. i got to the point where i could turn out a superb copy, while at the same time having pretty much zero by way of artistic ability.. some parts became very interesting, as when working in 110 farenheit and not being able to blend the paint.. so a faux blend was done.. and there are not instructions for that process to my knowledge..
Life is Good!
Klink
Klink said:
OH MY GOD!!! :shock:
You must forgive my shock Klink. I was, up until now, under the impression that you only typed cryptic messages that could only be devined thru the use of a ouiji board while Georgian monks chanted in the background!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
You strike me as being somewhat older, did you use the word "paint" because you didn't think I would know what "white wash" is? More importantly, did you take a few photographs of your art wor... Sorry Klink, I forgot Kodac didn't get started until the 1860's :lol:
Just a few jabs at you old people...And I will change my position SLIGHTLY, I should not have used the word "Artist", as Pug pointed out the proper word would be "Craftsman" (not as in wrench).
Stimulating debate!!!
And thank you Klink for the complement of a Non-cryptic post!
Also, just so no one gets the wrong impression, I always go to Pug whenever I have a question that pertains to watches and have the utmost respect for him and his knowledge of watches.
Klink, I meant NO disrespect with my comments, it was, as I am sure you are aware, all in good fun.
Jerry
:shock:amfiskadoz said:
Thanks for the kind words, but there are better experts here than me. I just take nice pictures.
Good discussion, though.
I wouldn't care. One can gain pleasure from the rep and the gen - yes, the reps do undermine the case for owning the gen, but not many watches can really be called "investments", that's a crock that dealers try to sell you on - I know from going into various NY dealers, and when they see my watch (last time a good 1950) they cry, "great investment!"
Like vintage cars, enjoy them for what they are, but they won't necessarily make you $$$ (better off with standard investments).
Like vintage cars, enjoy them for what they are, but they won't necessarily make you $$$ (better off with standard investments).
I think he only has the right to be upset if he bought the same model, there are tons of pam models be original. I have a neighbor who wants the exact same reps everytime I buy a new one but wants to pass them off as gens. Apparently he thinks people will actually believe he can afford an Overseas and a PAM GMT and Two Tone rolex in the same year on a cop salary. He doesn't know where to buy them nor does he have a computer so I just tell him they aren't available from my "supplier" right now. He has been bugging me about the overseas for 3 months now, but he can be a douchebag and him wearing it would make me not want to wear it (and its one of my favorite reps).
andreww said:
Sorry Andreww, but I must disagree with you on this (outrageous) statement. Unless I misread your post, you are making such statement admittedly without owning any gen.
The correct statement should read something like:
"Possibly they would be pissed because they made a significant investment and you got close to the same thing for virtually nothing."
Then I do agree with you 100%.
Does the friend pass it off as a gen? I could care less gen or rep but honesty is important in my mind.
so now the question becomes:
would you tell it if its a rep?
I'm in the progress of saving for a gen, regardless I'll still buy rep.
IMHO. In the world, it depends on your social status, if you are somewhere up, people would assume its a gen, same case with handbags for girls, if a poorly dressed unknown woman is strolling up a shopping alley with an LV bag, people would deduce its fake, but when another celebrity walk down the same street people would assume its real regardless of their knowledge on the product.
No one believes i wear rep, nor do i make the effort to clarify that mine is one.
man i love this topic
would you tell it if its a rep?
I'm in the progress of saving for a gen, regardless I'll still buy rep.
IMHO. In the world, it depends on your social status, if you are somewhere up, people would assume its a gen, same case with handbags for girls, if a poorly dressed unknown woman is strolling up a shopping alley with an LV bag, people would deduce its fake, but when another celebrity walk down the same street people would assume its real regardless of their knowledge on the product.
No one believes i wear rep, nor do i make the effort to clarify that mine is one.
man i love this topic
phoenixgod said:
yeah this is true,
the more you dressed up in public, the more confident, flashy rich person attitude you express
ppl will assume your handbags, watches, anything of expensive nature are deemed to be authentic.
it's all about portraying yourself.
but a disadvantage when you need to prowl a somewhat less desirable area with high crime rates, muggers would think you're prime target when all they can got from you are replicas
A lot of it has to do with priorities. Everybody decides what something's worth to them. I want stuff, and if I can buy an identical, for all practical purposes, watch that I want, I'm gonna save that $5,000, $6,000, $10,000 bucks and buy other stuff. When the price difference is within 10-20% of a name-brand or generic product, I will almost always spring for the original, real thing however. From TV's to stereos, clothes, house crap like paint, furniture, lights, hooch, even motor oil, I feel there's enough of a difference to spring for the good stuff. But when we're talking 80-90% or more off a "luxury" item when the rep is soooooo good, I'm there. Now, if I were a professional diver or synchronizing watches with James Bond so I didn't get caught in the big explosion, you bet your ass I'd be wearing a GENUINE watch.
As far as the admission of wearing a rep, nope, nobody's business. If they have the balls to ask me, I got the balls to ask if their wifes/girlfrind's tits are real. I don't go around waving it their faces or bragging about how much it cost, though. Where did basic manners go? It's time to start setting some of these ass-monkeys straight.
One exception though.......If they're a GOOD friend or a known fellow rep-collector, I'll tell'em only because they'll think it's cool.
As far as the admission of wearing a rep, nope, nobody's business. If they have the balls to ask me, I got the balls to ask if their wifes/girlfrind's tits are real. I don't go around waving it their faces or bragging about how much it cost, though. Where did basic manners go? It's time to start setting some of these ass-monkeys straight.
One exception though.......If they're a GOOD friend or a known fellow rep-collector, I'll tell'em only because they'll think it's cool.
To add more fuel to the fire, Panerai is going to have another price increase I believe around September.
Reps vs Gens
The neat thing about a very good rep is that you can marvel at the workmanship and the effort and the results of the watch against the gen and constantly be in awe of it. It can really make you appreciate the quality of tthe watch. I recently bought an Breitling Aero Avenger Ti UTC rep. When I received it I was just blown away with the quality of this watch. I wore it for 3 weeks straight, even though I have 17 quality gens. I even wore it in to a Tourneau store in New york and was complemented on it. They had 2 in the case and you could not tell the difference. You can take pride in quality at any level.
The neat thing about a very good rep is that you can marvel at the workmanship and the effort and the results of the watch against the gen and constantly be in awe of it. It can really make you appreciate the quality of tthe watch. I recently bought an Breitling Aero Avenger Ti UTC rep. When I received it I was just blown away with the quality of this watch. I wore it for 3 weeks straight, even though I have 17 quality gens. I even wore it in to a Tourneau store in New york and was complemented on it. They had 2 in the case and you could not tell the difference. You can take pride in quality at any level.
Lets not forget that most gens (except for the rare and collectible) devalue as soon as they leave the AD.
As far as I am concerned my reps don't devalue at all, and as repmaniac said, think of the money saved between gen and rep.
I can honestly say, I do not enjoy wearing a gen anymore than I do a rep.
In fact, to some extent, wearing a gen makes me a little paranoid (about damaging it etc) coupled with the concern that I could have spent the money on something else!
As far as I am concerned my reps don't devalue at all, and as repmaniac said, think of the money saved between gen and rep.
I can honestly say, I do not enjoy wearing a gen anymore than I do a rep.
In fact, to some extent, wearing a gen makes me a little paranoid (about damaging it etc) coupled with the concern that I could have spent the money on something else!
I agree.
Dont over do it with you rep or you'll get your ass handed down to you by a random knowledgable person one day on the street.
what i normally do is know the retail price of the watch i'm wearing, and if someone ask , they'd normally ask how much you get it for. not whether its real or not if you get the retail price right you can bet your ass they wont probe further
Dont over do it with you rep or you'll get your ass handed down to you by a random knowledgable person one day on the street.
what i normally do is know the retail price of the watch i'm wearing, and if someone ask , they'd normally ask how much you get it for. not whether its real or not
if you get the retail price right you can bet your ass they wont probe further