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Is it still considered a rep if you use all gen parts?
- Thread starter festivefuit
- Start date
Not too familiar with gen resale value but I believe a used gen watch with documentations of service from the gen factory is worth more than no documentations/documentations by some generic tech. Correct me if I'm wrong.
That's exactly it. Too many people looking to tack a label onto it just for the purpose of the label. The whole point of categorizing something into gen, franken, or rep is for a quick glance $$ value. I'd be surprised if anyone would prefer, in a random blind test, 5 watches put together by some random guy vs 5 watches assembled in the factory. For my money, I would put that watch closer to what I would pay for a franken than a true gen, hence my calling it a franken.
Well watches are suppose to come with their pedigree hence the crazy prices they commend. We in the rep scene know that some random Chinese assembling a watch while eating a sandwich can make a rep look 95% as good as gen AND make them just as reliable. At the end, I believe a gen buyer is buying the entire experience of the watch, not just some gears and casing made in a gen factory. They need the thought of "oh some very old man who was trained and certified by the Patek's family put his magic touch in my 100k watch".
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I guess it's like a car after being totaled. You can rebuild it, but it will not be of any value and hard to get rid of. To be a Gen it has to at least appear to be 100% factory built.
There was a recent case of John Mayer accusing his watch seller of selling him Franken Rolexs. This probably happens all over the world, but experts will eventually be able to tell the difference.
There was a recent case of John Mayer accusing his watch seller of selling him Franken Rolexs. This probably happens all over the world, but experts will eventually be able to tell the difference.
While I agree there can be some exceptions, I have not seen many reps that are as reliable as the original. Reps are typically weaker to shock and water. Exceptions on both sides nonwithstanding, the mean time to failure will certainly be lower on a rep than a gen. Specifically, I have experience with Rolex and Omega, both rep and gen, so I cannot comment with any authority on other brands. That is actually the primary reason that I own a few gens. I do, however, wholeheartedly agree that a good rep will look and feel identical to a gen, thus the "wearing experience" is the same for me. I just hate it when a watch breaks down, and I am super hard on my watches.
This is a pretty good analogy - hits the nail on the head. Ultimately, you can call it what you want as long as you paint a clear picture of the watch the buyer will be getting. I just think it would be disingenuous to not disclose that your "gen" watch was put together by a third party. As a buyer, I would certainly feel like I had one pulled over on me.
What I am arguing against is that if a watch has parts replaced, it is still a genuine brand watch. Let's say a gen 16610ln has its crystal smashed and my local watch smith (not rolex ad) replaces it with an oem one with the proper gasket and has it properly waterproof tested. If it had half of the parts replaced by oem, it would still be a genuine brand watch but not with its original parts. If it hadn't had the accident it would have been worth more... sure, but to argue that it isn't gen anymore is ridiculous.
No, if you totaled a Ferrari F40 and had it repaired, you would still get 675K. If you hadn't totaled it, you would get a lot more.
The discussion isn't really about if you can sell a mixed-parts watch as an original, its about wether you can call a "mixed parts watch" genuine or not. The history of the watch is a different story. An original will fetch you more money, but an all gen parts watch is still a genuine watch, just not worth as much.
The watch was once gen and still can be called gen because it was once blessed by the pedigree of the watch. Even though the resale value suffer because to some people it's "less gen", it's still gen. But any watch that was never originally bless by the founding company cannot be called gen. What is the meaning of gen parts? Parts can be cloned to perfection anywhere in the world. The only reason those parts are quantified as "gen parts" is because they were machined/built and q/ced from the original company. Would you consider a gen part as gen if it didn't come from the OEM but from China but it's the same exact clone of the part with the correct stamping/weight/material/dimensions? Is it a gen part if it was milled from the same exact machine as the gen's factory but this machine just so happen to be located in China?
Franken is Franken
Gen is Gen
If you have a watch that has 100% gen parts but the q/c guy didn't sign off on it at gen factory, then it's still a Franken.
Good points all around and agreed completely. And with vintage watches, boats, and vintage cars, having a log book goes a long way to provide provenance and the back story. How you handle the assembly or restoration work will determine whether you can show it at certain shows or how much you can sell it for (and who would buy it if you were to sell it). In either case, no matter how many parts are original factory sealed OEM parts or aftermarket parts designed to the mfr's exact specs, it does not change the fact that you can enjoy the car, boat, or watch knowing that you sourced the parts and built it.
It also makes no difference to the passersby on the street who see the car or watch and admire its beauty. A 1958 Rolex submariner 6538 with a Phong case and the rest gen spec parts is equally as beautiful as the same watch with a gen case. You have 100% equal enjoyment of it, and nobody on the planet would scoff at it. The only difference is you could not sell it or show it as 100% original. That is where your log book comes into play. You would provide the build specs to the buyer and they would know it is a recased piece - a genken. Same as restoring a Corvette and using some aftermarket parts in it. You would provide the log book and fully disclose which parts are not original and then the buyer can determine if those are worth replacing with original parts or not.
There are genkens over on TRF, too. Jocke is a master at tinkering with Rolexes and making genkens.
We've had these types of discussion many times before. To me they are just rhetorical questions with no definite answers to them, only varying opinions. If someone were to come up with a definite answer that we all agreed upon, the space time continuum would no longer exist. :nerd:
All these people that are so hung up on "factory assembled" is total nonsense. The first time you have it serviced it's absolutely positively not "factory assembled". It is totally taken apart, piece by piece, including the movement, often in an independent watchmakers non sterile work place. More often than not, parts are changed including but not limited to crystals, crown and tubes, gaskets, and any other damaged or well worn parts. So, in your theory, you're paying five to seven hundred dollars or more to have your "Genuine Factory Assembled" Rolex totally ruined.
Of course that's exactly what Rolex does when you send them that nice beautifully aged and patina'd Double Red Sea Dweller and they replace the dial for you at no charge. :lol:
OOPS! Of course Rolex would also charge you for changing that beautiful dial. :rofl:
Of course that's exactly what Rolex does when you send them that nice beautifully aged and patina'd Double Red Sea Dweller and they replace the dial for you at no charge. :lol:
OOPS! Of course Rolex would also charge you for changing that beautiful dial. :rofl:
IMHO OEM design and parts make a gen.
OEM replacements that fit manufacturer options for that model, are "gen." All gen parts in any factory configuration, if assembled correctly, is gen. Not "original," but genuine.
Franken or "mod" requires a deeper look. Frankencars range from my buddy's '87 Dinan to the V8 RX-7 that caught fire on my test drive. Something the factory didn't design may be good, or bad -- understanding how it's "frankened" is important (in the case of the RX-7, V8=great; cheap fittings w/ high fuel pressure=not great :laugh
, it's an individual call.
As with concours cars, expectations loosen after OEM replacement parts become unavailable. In these situations, keeping as many OEM parts as possible in a historical configuration is "gen" because there are no "original" examples in working shape.
OEM replacements that fit manufacturer options for that model, are "gen." All gen parts in any factory configuration, if assembled correctly, is gen. Not "original," but genuine.
Franken or "mod" requires a deeper look. Frankencars range from my buddy's '87 Dinan to the V8 RX-7 that caught fire on my test drive. Something the factory didn't design may be good, or bad -- understanding how it's "frankened" is important (in the case of the RX-7, V8=great; cheap fittings w/ high fuel pressure=not great :laugh
, it's an individual call. As with concours cars, expectations loosen after OEM replacement parts become unavailable. In these situations, keeping as many OEM parts as possible in a historical configuration is "gen" because there are no "original" examples in working shape.
IMHO OEM design and parts make a gen.
OEM replacements that fit manufacturer options for that model, are "gen." All gen parts in any factory configuration, if assembled correctly, is gen. Not "original," but genuine.
Franken or "mod" requires a deeper look. Frankencars range from my buddy's '87 Dinan to the V8 RX-7 that caught fire on my test drive. Something the factory didn't design may be good, or bad -- understanding how it's "frankened" is important (in the case of the RX-7, V8=great; cheap fittings w/ high fuel pressure=not great :laugh
As with concours cars, expectations loosen after OEM replacement parts become unavailable. In these situations, keeping as many OEM parts as possible in a historical configuration is "gen" because there are no "original" examples in working shape.
Maybe Rolex but I doubt AP/Patek/JLC get some independent watch maker to service your watch and then switch out random parts. When you pay 4-10k for a service, you better be getting the gen service.
This after KBH just explained that the first time you have it serviced it's no longer factory assebled? So your local watchsmith services your gen and suddenly it's now a rep... or a franken? Don't you see where you logic is failing or are you just trolling?