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Interesting. 36 jewel, 10 beats per second & and higher!!!!!

Malanda

Getting To Know The Place
23/8/09
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:shock:
Hey Check this out,
For those who are obsessed with smooth sweeping second hands, I found this on you-tube! Please fill me in if he is full of s&%$.

Link is;

The 'sweeping' second hand... various inc

We should get these in our reps??
 

Malanda

Getting To Know The Place
23/8/09
32
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Hi there,

one thing I find disturbing is in the last paragraph of the second link where it says "the impending end of ETA movement supplies to non-Swatch group companies",
I'm assuming there talking about 2009, which I have read in posts about ETA’s. I hope this doesn’t mean doom for ETA’s in reps, I don’t even have one yet. Would love to hear opinions from some more senior members? I hope this has been interesting.
 

werflga

Getting To Know The Place
27/7/06
48
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There is a thread on the eta movement in the watch general discussion forum. You may want to take a look there or do a search about the eta movements and reps.
 

fakemaster

Mythical Poster
31/5/07
9,185
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Cool. Now we can have Omegas and Cartiers that run TWICE as fast as they are supposed to. :lol:
 

Malanda

Getting To Know The Place
23/8/09
32
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Hi,
I've read that one, all about eta's. aparently that dude was telling porky pies. RobbieG I think. He got a mouth full in the end, was told he was full of it. But this looks like it at least backs up some of what he was saying?? At least about ETA's only being sold to one company.

I dunno, my point is that I love the smooth sweep thing is cool!
 

Meta4

Renowned Member
26/4/09
588
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"I hope this doesn’t mean doom for ETA’s in reps"

There probably haven't been ETAs in reps for quite some time but the hands still go round.
 

Malanda

Getting To Know The Place
23/8/09
32
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Hey,
I hope that's not the case "doomed", I still don't have one yet.

Fakemaster, do you think the 36 j thing is rubbish? Not possible? Porkey Pies even?
Could they be battery powered maybe?
 

werflga

Getting To Know The Place
27/7/06
48
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RobbieGs was interesting but I was talking about the article by LOS. Sorry I did not make that clear.
 

fakemaster

Mythical Poster
31/5/07
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In relation to that article I dunno. I didn't even click the link. There are high end movements with large amounts of jewels. My point is that we already put movements in some reps that beat faster than the gen. If the purpose is accuracy then why go even faster?

[think:35mxjkuz]I dunno about you but it's not going to get me into her pants any faster.[/think:35mxjkuz]
 

drfcfighter

I'm Pretty Popular
19/11/06
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fakemaster said:
In realtion to that article I dunno. I didn't even click the link. There are high end movements with large amounts of jewels. My point is that we already put movements in some reps that beat faster than the gen. If the purpose is accuracy then why go even faster?

[think:1qjmhrsu]I dunno about you but it's not going to get me into her pants any faster.[/think:1qjmhrsu]

Ditto. Good point. Quality of the movement should be measured by build quality, accuracy, reliability, and durability. They could be 78kvph with 975 jewels, it won't mean dick if it doesn't keep time and last a hundred years. Omega Coaxials (granted, they're overrated) have 25kvph or so modified down from a 28.8kvph ETA calibur; obviously this doesn't mean it's a downgrade.
 

Malanda

Getting To Know The Place
23/8/09
32
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Hahhaha. Thanks for the info Fakemaster, makes sence. I had just had not heard about anything above 29 j before.

Also have read the post by LOS. A bit disheartening.

I would cut and paste it into the box, but not sure on the rules regarding that, as it is not my work or research.

Here is the link again, it has a good history about the development of ETA's, the 36 jewel movements and the way movements might be heading in the future.

Here is the link again for anyone that's interested.

http://www.36000bph.com/index.php?optio ... &Itemid=51

Kind regards
Malanda
 

Malanda

Getting To Know The Place
23/8/09
32
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Interesting Drfcfighter. I'd agree, that's why I didn't buy the Rolex Daytona Pro Hunter 29 jewel Asia Valjoux 7750 Mt PVD, cause I heard they wear out. What was interesting though is the Article said that the higher the Jewel, the more accurate it measures the time. I would rather a rep though that was a few seconds out a day-that lasts years, than one that was 1000th of a second out every 100 years- but didnt tell the time at all after 18 months.
 

fakemaster

Mythical Poster
31/5/07
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I have a 22J Sub right here on my arm that has been running no variance for three months. Jewels have nothing to do with it.
 

Meta4

Renowned Member
26/4/09
588
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"the higher the Jewel, the more accurate it measures the time"

I don't think that's how it works.

But if you want accurate - get a quartz.
 

Malanda

Getting To Know The Place
23/8/09
32
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0
This is what the thing says

Why is a higher frequency movement more accurate?

At a very fundamental level, a higher frequency movement is more accurate than a lower frequency movement simply because it divides time into finer increments. Finer increments of time measurement translates into higher resolution which means a 36,000 bph movement is capable of 1/10th of a second timing where as a 28,800 bph movement is only capable of 1/8th of a second timing. Statistically high frequency watch movements should also be more accurate simply because the higher number of beats per time interval means that the stability of time keeping of these movements (i.e. the average accuracy) should be higher than a lower beat movement simple because the average is established over a greater number of beats. Put another way, the inaccuracy of any single beat has less of an impact on accuracy since more beats go into timekeeping for a given time period.

An article on this subject on timezone.com characterizes this another way. The article characterizes hi beat movements as more stable than lower beat movements. Based on the idea that disruptions of the timing train caused by physical shocks or changes are a major cause of watch inaccuracy, the article concludes that the finer timing interval of a high beat movement, means that the percentage of beats affected by a physical shock is smaller in a higher beat movement than a lower beat movement, and therefore a higher beat movement is a more stable time keeper than a lower beat movement. To see the article, click here.

It goes on to say later that they are not a robust. It must be down to how well you have the movement tuned then??? My 21j keeps good time too. Malanda
 

Meta4

Renowned Member
26/4/09
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If it was such a good idea - all the gen makers would be doing it ... but they're not.
 

Malanda

Getting To Know The Place
23/8/09
32
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It goes on to say this, I guess that why rolex does not have a 100 jewel movement.

What were the challenges of making a high beat movement?

Power Consumption
More beats takes more power. All of that back and forth of the timing wheel takes more power than a lower beat rate movement. Early hi beat watches had power reserves in the high 30 hour range, with later models raising power reserves to the low 40 hour range. Power reserve challenges were handled in these watches by carefully balancing the timing train of these movements to make them efficient as possible, improvements in the lubricants used and by improvements in automatic winding modules. High power use also meant that high frequency watches tend to be large in diamteter, because they need large mainsprings for power. Large diameters, mean there are no 36,000 vph women's watches.

Wear

Two types of wear come along with higher beat rates, higher frictional wear from greater amounts of movement and higher torsional loads from the higher frequency back and forth in the movement. Torsional loads were largely handled by using lighter components and balancing the timing trains of these movements to minimize the amount of torque involved in a high frequency movement.

Lubrication

With more action, high beat movements, place more stress on lubricants, making them prone to breakdown. Using heavier lubricants might have solved the problem, but heavier lubricants increase power consumption and have a greater tendency to fling. The more rapid acceleration and deceleration of the timing train making keeping lubricants from flinging a big problem, so the solution to this problem was to use dry and light weight synthetic lubricants. These new lubricants have higher resistance to breakdown, and are light enough to not fling under the rapid back and forth of a high frequency movement. In practice, assertions that high frequency movements are subject to more wear and require more frequent service than lower frequency movements have never been proven.

Why aren't high beat movements more popular for current use?

Commercially high beat movements have never achieved the wide adoption of lower beat movements. While there is probably no conclusive reason they've never been widely adopted by watchmakers the clues to why these movements never achieved wide spread popular use can probably be inferred by broadly comparing them to the ETA 2824, 28,800 bph movement, the currently most popular Swiss automatic movement.

Technologically the ETA 2824 was created in the early 70s, just after the first 36,000 bph movements were created and at the same time the last 36,000 bph movements were being created, so the technology in later high beat movements is similar to the technology in the 2824. The technology is so similar that Ulysse Nardin uses a modified version of the 2824 as the basis for their 36,000 vph movement (cal. NB 11 QU) and ETA produced a high beat kit for the 2824 to turn it into a 36kbph movement. So it is isn't the basic technology of the movement which keeps these movements from being widely adopted. Advances in ancillary technologies does highlight some of the short comings of these movements. Whereas progress in lubricants and automatic winding modules has increased the power reserve of some 2824 movements to 50 hours, modern high beat movements still have power reserves in the low 40 hour range.

While 5 hertz movements are theoretically more accurate time keepers than 4 hertz movement, there are no definitive tests that prove this. Anecdotal testing seems to indicate that these movements are slightly more accurate than their 4 hertz counterparts, and in particular slightly more stable time keepers. Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres, COSC, chronometer testing shows that 2824 movements specifically, and 28,800 bph movements in particular have no problems meeting COSC chronometer requirements, so even though these high beat movements maybe more accurate and/or more stable, there is no clear or public certification of this "advantage" so it is immaterial to the vast majority of watch buyers.

The last and probably the most accurate reason that high beat movements were not widely adopted is cost. High beat movements have always been more expensive than lower beat movements to produce. Special oils, special balances, some higher tolerance parts, and these movements end up being more expensive to produce. While at volume it is likely that the cost premium of these movements over lower beat rate movements might be as low as $10 per movement, these movements arrived at a time when the Swiss mechanical watch making industry was under assault from Japanese manufacturers, electronic movements, and most significantly quartz movement watches. With higher accuracy and lower production costs than Swiss automatic movements, quartz movement watches marginalized the claims of Swiss watchmakers to higher quality watches, dramatically reduced their sales, and put them in a position where every bit of profit counted as they struggled to survive in dramatically changed watch market. Even $10 per movement was probably too much of a premium for Swiss watchmakers faced with crushing competition and a battle to survive.

In contrast to this, through out the 70s to now, Zenith produced 36,000 bph movement watches which have attained legendary status. Zenith's El Primero movement has seen use in not only its Rainbow Chronographs, but also Tag Heuer, Rolex, Movado, Concord, and Panerai chronographs. The legendary status is directly related to the fact that the ability of mechanical chronographs to accurately measure short time intervals is directly related to the beat frequency of the chronograph's movement. With the highest beat frequency of any chronograph movement, the Zenith El Primero based chronograph was the first wristwatch chronograph to be able to time intervals down to 1/10th of a second. These chronographs continue to be the pinnacle of automatic mechanical movement chronographs, but due to the complexity and narrowness of the market for mechanical chronographs the cost of these movements is roughly five times the cost of the much more common lower beat Valjoux 7750 chronograph movement.

What is the future of 36,000 bph movements?

The LVMH Group, which owns Zenith and Tag and continues to produce chronographs based on the El Primero movement with supply of El Primero movements to non-LVMH companies having ended.

Favre Leuba in 2009 announced two limited edition models using 36000 bph manual wind movements, The Favre Leuba 401 is an entirely new movement, featuring not only a 36kbph beat frequency, but also an 8 day power reserve and classic Favre Leuba twin barrel, and the other watch Favre Leuba is producing is based on an old-stock A Schild. high frequency movement. The 8 day power reserve of the new Favre Leuba movement is particularly noteworthy as this achievement would seem to indicate that power consumption concerns with these movements have been addressed over the past 40 years.

Seiko also announced in 2009 two new models with 36,000 vph movements, the SBGH001 and SBGH003, but automaitc date models. The development of these models is attributed to advance in hairsping technology. Seiko also has purportedly developed movements at beat frequencies of 43,200 vph.

Seiko's developments are particularly interesting, as their innovative Spring Drive movement, has the potential to create a new standard for watch movements, the way their Astrolon quartz watch did. So for Seiko to be reintroducing traditional style high frequency movement watches is something to watch.

Against the preceding is the impending end of ETA movement supplies to non-Swatch group companies, the rise of Selita, Seagull, and other alternative movement producers, and it seems we are in a period where watch makers will increasingly focus on distinguishing their products through the movements they use.
 

drfcfighter

I'm Pretty Popular
19/11/06
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this is all nice in theory, but the market doesn't support it. For best accuracy, I'd buy a Casio. Just my 2 cents.
 

phillycheez

Respected Member
6/6/09
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raise your hand if you read...

A matter of Time: http://forum.replica-watch.info/phpBB3/vi ... 06&t=50844

are we really complaining about how well our watches keep time? is that really the reason we all have more than one watch?? an automatic watch for that matter!

yes, drfc is correct. buy a quartz, "set it and forget it" it will keep accurate time all the time and it only cost you $15.