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How a law abiding/permit carrying individual is treated at times....

idontknow

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http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53994

Hello everyone. Been awhile since I've posted. I guess the good news is concealed carry seems to have gotten "normal." There just don't seem to be as many exciting issues anymore.

I am representing someone in a failure to notify case. It is an ongoing legal case, so I dont want to post too much here right now. I watched the video today, and it verified an almost unbelievable story my client told me. To make this real brief - my client was stopped. Tried to notify, but was told by one officer to shut up. Another officer came to the driver's side door, and again my client tried to notify. You can hear him in the video say "I've got . . ." before he his cut off with a profanity laced tirade, and demand for his driver's license. My clent hands the officer his license, tries to notify again while holding his CHL in his hand. The officer says "What? What are you waving around that you want me to see?" He takes it, looks at it, while my client says "I'm trying to tell you . . ." The officer asks, "do you have a gun? My guy says "Yes" and then is pushed against his vehicle while the officer takes the gun from my client's waistband holster. The total time from the officer approaching the car door to being told he has a gun was 55 seconds.

It gets worse from there. The officer tells my guy that "I should blast you right in the mouth." "I'm close to caving in your head." "You are a stupid human being." "How would you like it if I pull mine and stick it to your head." When speaking to another officer, he says "I hate these expletive deleted - Jake with their gd permits." And, again, later tells my client "I should have taken 2 steps back, put 10 rounds in your expletive deleted - Jake, and left you lying there. I should have executed you, and I'd go home and sleep good tonight."

Internal affairs was notified. I am having a difficult time conveying the intensity involved. This was bad, really bad scene.

Sorry I can't say more right now. Be careful out there!!

Edit to add one more bit of information. My client was stopped in his motor vehicle at the time. He was in a no parking zone. This was not the result of a high speed chase or anything like that.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of LEO's out there that are a product of grad school indoctrination and feel the constitution is not a document that should be heeded/respected.

The agency that I was a part of many years ago had many people in the field that held this type of opinion of legally armed civilians.

In fact the *former* lead of the tac team had openly stated he believed that only the GOB's (good old boys) on his team should be the ones ever to be allowed to carry weapons (yes he really dis'd everyone in the field).

Note to mods...

If you can remove "being" from my thread title it would be much appreciated. I need some more caffiend....
 

G30

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2 things...

1. How the f*ck can this happen.

2. I'm not sure what else to say at this point.

Kind of tired right now. I think I'll ruminate on this some more before I comment further...
 

trandy16

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"Badge heavy" is never a good thing....although it is prevalent in most departments.
 

Anopsis

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Note to mods...

If you can remove "being" from my thread title it would be much appreciated.

Done.

Now, on the subject of the post topic... WHAT?!?
786_shocked.gif


Unfortunately, this type of thing does happen.

In fact the *former* lead of the tac team had openly stated he believed that only the GOB's (good old boys) on his team should be the ones ever to be allowed to carry weapons (yes he really dis'd everyone in the field).

Fact. A sh*t-ton of LEO brass think that the public at large should not be armed. They think that they're the only ones qualified to handle such a deadly weapon; the truth is, a LOT of civvies are better-trained than rank-and-file LE these days.
Some cops think that 'qualifying' with their duty weapon twice a year makes them proficient with a firearm. Gimme an effin' break.

I *wish* Kentucky would address the notify issue. Here, the law says you SHOULD notify. How the f*ck can a LAW say SHOULD? Should is not the same as must. Basically the law says "we recommend you do it, but you don't actually have to". :facepalm:
I once had a rookie Deputy almost draw on me because I handed him my carry license along with my dl.
 

idontknow

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So let me tell you about "qualification".....

We had to go to the range quarterly. For the majority of us that weren't grandfather'd in (not in the GOBC) our duty weapon was the S&W 4506 (serious boat anchor). I have been at the range and watched a senior member of the agency draw and then start "helping" his weapon fire (imagine someone pulling a totally slack trigger while pushing the weapon back and forth at the target), and then exclaim "my ****ing gun won't shoot" as he turns and flags me with a loaded weapon. Luckily I have already completed the course of fire, holstered, and find myself diving for the ground when I realize and shout at the same time "it's because your ****ing safety is still on!"

This individual usually went UNQ every time we went to the range, but was put back out in the field until he could come back and PRIVATELY requal with the range officer. Amazingly enough I once saw him stubbornly attempt to requal 4-5 times in the same day (each time with 50rds of .45 Federal HS's at the taxpayers expense).

The old statistic of LEO's only hitting their target 17% of the time in a deadly force encounter I think is no where close to being as low as it actually is......

I have to agree with Anopsis that in many instances civilians are much better prepared and trained that your common LEO in the field. I think it is because of a shift in department priorities in hiring over the years. In the past it was not uncommon for agencies to give former .mil preference because there was a certain level of discipline and training that they brought with them when they came on board. Now a lot of agencies are looking for people with a degree, and in some cases no .mil history because they believe the "educated" individuals bring more to the table with the degree (psych, business, phys ed, life experience in .edu). So you now have a bunch of socially indoctrinated, badge pushing, undertrained people with firearms patrolling your neighborhoods.

I stated in another thread that I can count on my fingers and toes the amount of times I ever had to draw a weapon when I was in LE. I attribute this mainly to my ability to get peoples attention with commands (I am a former jarhead and have a voice that projects, just a bit ;)), and communicate what the outcome would be if someone attempted to escalate a situation. Early on I learned to give someone a small amount of respect from the beginning of a contact that was usually returned in kind.

As it stands right now, I believe that unless it explicitly states in your state law that you MUST identify yourself as a permit holder/carrying a weapon, don't. But that really comes down to avoiding situations like this individual in Ohio found himself in. Best bet is to always be "heads up" on where you are and what you are doing so that you never find yourself having to be in contact with/answer any questions from your local LE representative.

Last time I ever had contact with anyone in LE was 10yrs ago. That was because I had been in a collision where someone blew a red light and totaled my car. After I was out of my vehicle I advised the officer interviewing me that I had a weapon in my vehicle in a Uncle Mike's fanny pack. He did nothing more than say "thanks" and then had his partner secure the pack/weapon in their vehicle until the scene was cleaned/ cleared up and then it was returned to me (un-tampered with) when my wife came to pick me up. Of course this was the exception to how many of these situations "go down".

Until we have a shift in the "Us vs Them" mindset that is so predominant in the ranks of LE we will see/hear of more of these types of episodes.....
 

idontknow

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Talk about a whole lot of fail on this one....

The permit holder should have been a little bit more insistent about notification. I can't see where he had a whole lot of opportunity to say anything with such a controlling, thick headed, adam henry not giving anyone much room/time to speak up without either interrupting them or cutting them off completely with threats.

I never saw them even attempt to speak to/interview the driver to begin with. Nor did I ever hear anyone ask him for permission to search the vehicle (still trying to understand what the probable cause was for that).

I do know this, if I ever had a complaint for this sort of conduct, with such incriminating dash cam footage, the investigation would have been extremely short and ended with my unemployment.

If there is anyone here that disagrees speak up, but I am willing to bet that no matter what agency you are a part of this type of unprofessional behavior would not be tolerated.
 

idontknow

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Needless to say I knew a guy like this that was total pr!ck off duty too. He was out one night, and was just a tad bit intoxicated when he discovered the hard way that a badge in his front pocket couldn't save him from getting a much deserved ass kicking. (He got a little bit of time off for that incident.)
Wouldn't you know it though, he still never learned his lesson. I should check back to see if he is still there or finally resigned and moved on to go screw up someplace else....
 

donaldejose

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Show the video to any jury and the cops lose the case.

This officer needs to either have more training or be fired. The other officer is keeping a cool head.
 

ThinkBachs

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You can't un-train behavior like that... put him in the mail sorting room (without a weapon so he doesn't go postal) at the appropriate pay scale or boot his ass. His definition of protect and serve are warped beyond fixing.
 

Five of Clubs

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I have only been pulled over once when carrying, but my experience was the exact opposite of this. When the state trooper approached my car, I only handed him my CCW permit and nothing else. He asked if I had a gun in the car, I responded that I did and told him where it was. He then handed back my permit, took my drivers license and never said another word about it! I seriously think he let me off with a warning because he didn't want to go through the trouble of disarming me, unloading the gun, and potentially calling for backup.

The point is this guy knew that a permit holder was no threat to him. I wish all LEOs had that attitude.
 

NotEnoughWatches

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Unfortunately there r alot of officers that don't need to be doing what they r doing just like lawyers,doctors,firemen etc!!!!!!!. Do i agree that citizens r bettered prepared some r and some aren't u can put the training blame on departments because most don't want to spend any money except on bare minimum and alot of these guys r doing the best they can with what they have and have u seen a cops salary. Cops deal with things that most of us don't want to see or know about. When a cop does something bad we as citizen want to bash all them for what one does and guys think there r alot of officers that do their job professionally and one bad apple makes alot of us think they r all like that.A officer being cautious with people he don't know an the unknown have np with. Being unprofessional i do have prob. i clearly see the citizen telling him he was carrying an this officer totally went the wrong way. What i'm saying is don't let this make u think all LEO is this way because they r not there is alot of good LEO that r professional an respectful.
 

ThinkBachs

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I stopped reading after the first "r." Something about that bugs me. I'm sure it was worth reading though...
 

levelmanroger

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I would like to think it's better here in Texas where CC is very common. I haven't heard stories like this one.

But I gotta tell you - my job takes me into hundreds of homes a year over the past 26 years. The two where I was most disturbed/afraid were cops.
Both Dallas cops but the incidents were about 10 years apart.
Both homes were trashed with tons of empty beer cans everywhere, mercenary magazines open and spread out in multiple rooms, and no less than 5 hand guns lying openly around the house, most with mags in, and boxes of ammo. I had to do a double-take to make sure it wasn't the same guy in a different house.

Both times I just tried not to say or do anything that could piss someone off.

And don't get me started on the time I called CPS on a high-dollar Highland Park attorney for the unbelievably unsanitary living conditions they were subjecting young children to.

Yes... I have some stories to tell.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

woof*

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I read the thread title and just knew this was about officer Harless. It will put people at ease to know officer Harless is finally in custody. There are several more youtube vids of him doing this kind of thing. The FBI got involved after 18 complaints against this officer. There were so many complaints in fact...the FBI stopped taking them.
The amazing thing to me.. is that the higher ups did nothing about this loose cannon for so long.
I was treated this way in Texas once many years ago, and I will tell you it's really unnerving when you are at the mercy of a nutjob like this.


ETA: this officer has been doing this a long time. There are threads about him on Arfcom going back two years.
 

idontknow

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I read the thread title and just knew this was about officer Harless. It will put people at ease to know officer Harless is finally in custody. There are several more youtube vids of him doing this kind of thing. The FBI got involved after 18 complaints against this officer. There were so many complaints in fact...the FBI stopped taking them.
The amazing thing to me.. is that the higher ups did nothing about this loose cannon for so long.
I was treated this way in Texas once many years ago, and I will tell you it's really unnerving when you are at the mercy of a nutjob like this.


ETA: this officer has been doing this a long time. There are threads about him on Arfcom going back two years.

If you can post up the arfcom links, or anything else you have at your fingertips... I would be quite interested in reading and watching once I get home tonight.