Help Identify this Explorer (6610) - Does it exist, and is this gen?

[chisin]

Hi All,

I recently came across this in a second hand dealer shop. I can't tell if it is genuine, as I have not seen this sorta dial before. Need the rollie experts to chime in on:

a) whether such a gen exists? Never seen this dial on the vintage 6610 photos I've seen

b) if it IS gen - circa what year is this from?

c) and if anyone has any idea how much this will cost (assuming it is all gen)?

Please see this link for a super large photo for detail (not embedding here cuz it's big)

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/chisin2011/Unknown6610.jpg

The photo below is a scaled down pic (and is crappy as heck, but just to give you an idea of what I am talking about):

Thanks for any assistance, all.

 

[jhudson]

Yes...the 6610 is a real Rolex Explorer I. Looking at it, unless it was a transition model (became a Vintage Rolex nut over the past 3 weeks, so it's still lots that I just don't know), the T SWISS T location is very questionable. I don't think that it was ever placed in the middle of second markers like that. It was either under (with or without the border) or the second markers where T SWISS T was located were shortened but I don't think it was ever like that. I may be wrong though.

 

[chisin]

Hey jhudson - thanks -yeah, that T Swiss T placement and the minute markers were the first thing that looked odd to me, too.

Anyone else with any input?

 

[Bonesey]

Best idea is to go to Google Images and type in Explorer 6610 and browse through the shots. If you find one similar then follow the picture to the source and see where it leads.

Other choice is to go to places like chrono24.com and search for similar watches.

 

[LHOOQ]

I could be mistaken, but based on the SCOC instead of OCC text, it looks like someone put a 70s-era 1016 dial into a 6610.

That's assuming it is a 6610. The only way you could tell is by checking the engraving between the lugs, or by unscrewing the caseback to see what movement's inside. 1030 for a 6610, 1560/1570 for a 1016.

EDIT: SCOC=Superlative Chronometer... OCC: Officially Certified Chronometer

 

[jhudson]

I could be mistaken, but based on the SCOC instead of OCC text, it looks like someone put a 70s-era 1016 dial into a 6610.

That's assuming it is a 6610. The only way you could tell is by checking the engraving between the lugs, or by unscrewing the caseback to see what movement's inside. 1030 for a 6610, 1560/1570 for a 1016.

EDIT: SCOC=Superlative Chronometer... OCC: Officially Certified Chronometer

IIRC, the 6610 was SCOC also....I'm looking for a pic right now. But with everything, I can be wrong..

 

[chisin]

Thanks, guys. I wanted to get more pics, but the dealer was already kinda unhappy about it. That's not to say he knows his stuff is fake, but it's just typical of a grouchy mom-n-pop store kinda fella who doesn't appreciate watches that much and has a take it/leave it attitude with new customers. Forgot to look at the engraving between the lugs. Sigh....idiot me.

@jhudson - Managed to find a pic? Cuz I've been scouring the net, and it looks like LHOOQ was right about the SCOC and this is probably a 1016 dial, if it is even gen. The "T Swiss T" bugs me - never seen this.

 

[LHOOQ]

juhudson: I've only ever seen one 1016 dial with OCC on it. It was a very early dial with minute track. Conversely, I've never seen a 6610 with SCOC. But it bears repeating ad nauseam: Anything's possible with Rolex, and anything's possible with dial refinishers.

Which leads to the dial in the OP. The picture is terrible, but the shapes of the markers and numerals are very good. Ditto the overall look and spacing of the text, even if we can't make out any of the details. 'T SWISS T' is definitely weird, and leads me to suspect some touch-up work in that area.

 

[jhudson]

http://www.timeman.net/thewatch.asp?id=1551

http://www.rolexforums.com/showpost.php?p=402271&postcount=7
Both of them just happen to be '57 6610.

 

[rol_man]

Here's a shot of a '56 6610. If you look closely, the T SWISS T sits underneath the second markers. As said above, there can be considerable variance between years, dial refinishing, etc.

 

[LHOOQ]

Very interesting, jhudson! Just when you think you have things sorta figured out, there's always a curve ball...

chisin: Going back to your original question about value, I'll go out on a limb and say that I wouldn't pay more than $2000-2500 for this. The going rate for a decent, original 1016 -with bracelet and maybe papers- is about $4000-5000. (Ignore the inflated BINs out there.) I figure the rarer 6610 should be at least 50% more--provided it's original. With a 1016, there are still a lot of service dials and more than a few original dials floating around. They can be hard to find and pricey, but they're out there. For a 6610, you're going to have a hell of a time finding a correct dial, and it would probably cost $2000-3000 at minimum. Then an original 7206 bracelet will run you about $700-1000.

It all depends on what you want to do with the thing. With patience and deep pockets, you could come out ahead in a year or two. Or you could just wear it.

 

[chisin]

Thank you all so much for the input!! Really appreciate it. It would seem that the dial in jhudson's second pic from the forum is the closest to the one in my photo, with the minute markers extending all the way to the rehaut - too bad can't see the "Swiss" text at the bottom, but I guess it's probably not T Swiss T.

@ LHOOQ - was actually saving up to get a GMT II Coke, which goes for around USD4,500 - USD5,000 here. Came across this store, and the minute I put my hands on that explorer, fell in love with it. The intention was to buy and wear and if in the end it doesn't work out, to flip it - would be a plus if I could flip with some profit, naturally. Store owner is offering it off the shelf at around USD5,000, but nego is possible. Thanks for your feedback on how much something like this is worth - guess with the uncertainty of the dial, I should probably give this a miss and revert to the original plan. Classic (and much better than today's explorers, IMHO), but I'm just worried I'd have to sink in even more to ensure smooth running in future (and I know the thought that it is not an original dial, or it is a refinished one will always be on my mind).

Once again, thank you all! And if anyone else has any further pics for comparison, do post them up for my (and perhaps our collective) information.

 

[LHOOQ]

Mind you, my valuation is very much an amateur effort, so do get a second opinion, maybe from one of the pros on VRF. There may be something I'm forgetting, and I'd hate for this to be your "the one that got away" story!

That said, $5000 is really steep given all the caveats. A $5000 budget would go far in 1016 shopping. You could definitely get an all-original piece in good condition with that money--even a gilt dial, if you're patient and lucky. (Or interested. I like the matte dials, personally.) If I were you, I would regularly check in at VRM to see what pops up.

 

[chisin]

Thanks so much, LHOOQ (and all the others, as well). Thanks for pointing me towards the VRF - I shoulda thought about posting there before.

As for waiting for one to pop up online, my only problem with online buying of a gen is I guess the fear of parting with that much money for goods I have not personally seen nor handle.... but, I guess eventually am gonna have to take the plunge one day, given limited stuff here in my country.

 

[chisin]

Hi all - Ok, I just went back to the store to take another look. Again, my crappy phone camera's shots are really not worth putting up. Anyway, took a look at the case serial numbers between lugs. At 12 o'clock - "6610", at 6 o'cloc - what appears to be "359634" or "359034".

On the tag, someone from the store when the watch first came in (probably years ago) had catalogued the number "737664" - when I asked, store guy wasn't sure where this number was from - could it be the movement?

Now, if my understanding is correct, the "359xxx" serial on the case would place the case at around 1957-58. Still not sure about the dial, store owner admitted he couldn't be sure if the dial is the original. Movement does not hack, so it's gotta be pre-cal 1570. Heard from someone that due to the legs, a 1016 dial will not fit on a cal 1030. So, either this is a dial made specifically for the 1030, or there's a 1570 in that 6610 case. I think I'm just about going bonkers now......gah!

 

[LHOOQ]

Non-hacking doesn't really narrow things down, unfortunately. It could be a 1030, a 1560, or it could just be a non-hacking 1570! A 1560/1570 dial is definitely not compatible with a 1030 movement, so... dial dots, maybe? I doubt the seller will let you crack open the case to find out! The case sounds good, though a profile shot would've been helpful.

Lots of question marks about this watch, and I don't think there's enough demand for 6610s to make it a restoration project with a good ROI. And if you just want to wear it, go with a 1016! Earlier today, a rough-looking 1016 sold for $2100 at auction. Not to me, though. I cheaped out at $2020.

 

[chisin]

Hey LHOOQ! Guess what? Was looking through VRF again with the serial number - they've got this Vintage Rolex Case Number Project thread where they are cataloguing all the rolexes out there. Ran through the list looking for a matching serial number and....voila, there was an entry about an explorer sold on an ebay auction - description of the dial was with SCOC AND "T Swiss T"!!!! This from 1958, you gotta scroll all the way down to 359xxx.

http://vintagerolexforum.info/vrf/index3

Wouldn't it be funny if this may be the same watch that was sold on that ebay auction! LOL.

Edit: adding two more crappy photos I took with my shitty camera phone. Apologies, this is why I rarely do wristshots

Hands were shaking - the numbers were actually very nice and neat - didn't look like they were painted over or anything...in fact, looked kinda flat.

 

[LHOOQ]

Unfortunately my workplace firewall is blocking the pictures, so I can't comment on them until later. That's interesting what you found in the VRF archive. I guess my main complaint with the dial in your OP is a gut reaction: It just doesn't look like a dial from 1957! The neatness and size of the numerals, the layout of the markings, the fonts, &c. all point to something from the mid-60s to the early 70s. Rolex dials from the 50s and earlier generally had a rougher appearance out of the factory, and aged faster, to boot. If your 6610's dial wasn't refinished, then it's also possible that it received a replacement dial many years ago. Maybe to replace a radium dial?

 

[chisin]

Nah, don't bother looking at the photos - again, my hands were shaking like crazy. I'm shite with cameras. I do agree with you on the dials - it's too nice and neat compared to the hands which are visibly rusting/ tarnished. You're probably right. A couple of forum members on VRF are skeptical, too - one even said the hands are also wrong, though I haven't asked him for details on that. I think am at the point where am gonna take your advice and look for a 1016, if am gonna get a vintage explorer. But, at the same time, will keep on checking, if only to satisfy my curiosity, to see if a dial and hand set-up like this truly did exist or not for a 6610. Many, many thanks LHOOQ for all the feedback!

 

[LHOOQ]

I didn't realize you'd already started a VRF thread, but there are some good responses there. I do wonder about Paul's contention that OCC and SCOC are directly related to the movement inside. That may be true in the case of the 5512/5513, but we have established that early 1016s with 1560 movements also had the OCC text. Of course, those might have been freak dials, too!

Not so sure what to make about the hands comment. I didn't see anything wrong with the hands in your picture, and you're probably right about them being more original than the dial. Does anyone know the hand hole size of a 1030 vs a 1560?

Glad to help out. I love old Explorers, but there just isn't a whole lot of information out there, unlike for vintage Subs and Daytonas. I do see some thick magazines every now and then, but they're always in Japanese!