GMT IIc gen Swiss, debunking the myth...

[sconehead]

I've seen a lot of sales threads recently on all the forums describing the ceramic GMT's as 'gen Swiss'.

Considering it is an in house bastardized 2836-2 movement from a Chinese factory, how is this possible?

Buyers are obviously being mislead somewhere, as for me anyway, every watch I've seen with a caseback off has been a modified Asian clone 2836-2 movement...discuss...

 

[SpootyPuff]

Subscribed, I'm curious

 

[guru]

my guess is that the base 2836-2 is is swiss movement which get's modded with the GMT function

 

[levelmanroger]

All I know is that the Chinese factories wouldn't lie. ;-)


I believe about 90% of the "swiss" movements sold in rep watches are clones. There is a lot of confusion between a "Swiss" movement vs. a "gen" movement vs. a "clone" movement. Most gen ETA movements we can get in reps will be Chinese-made ETA movements, and most of those will be ones that didn't quite meet QC standards. The rare "Swiss" made ETA or Sellita movement found in a rep will typically be an old reconditioned (barely) movement.
Buying a "clone" movement is actually the only way to be sure you are getting what you paid for, sadly.
As for the GMT movements, since the Chinese factory must add the complication for the GMT hand, I find it hard to believe they would start with the more expensive movement and then turn it over to the 10-year old factory "workers" to have a go at.
In general, I wish we could do something about all the bogus claims made by the dealers (usually just repeating what the factory has told them without any verification), such as "Swiss", "made using a gen as an example", "gen parts will fit", "Grade A++", etc. etc. etc.

 

[QinetiQ]

All I know is that the Chinese factories wouldn't lie. ;-)


I believe about 90% of the "swiss" movements sold in rep watches are clones. There is a lot of confusion between a "Swiss" movement vs. a "gen" movement vs. a "clone" movement. Most gen ETA movements we can get in reps will be Chinese-made ETA movements, and most of those will be ones that didn't quite meet QC standards. The rare "Swiss" made ETA or Sellita movement found in a rep will typically be an old reconditioned (barely) movement.
Buying a "clone" movement is actually the only way to be sure you are getting what you paid for, sadly.
As for the GMT movements, since the Chinese factory must add the complication for the GMT hand, I find it hard to believe they would start with the more expensive movement and then turn it over to the 10-year old factory "workers" to have a go at.
In general, I wish we could do something about all the bogus claims made by the dealers (usually just repeating what the factory has told them without any verification), such as "Swiss", "made using a gen as an example", "gen parts will fit", "Grade A++", etc. etc. etc.

Although I agree with most of what you said, I can't say the same about the last thing you said. Some watches ARE made using gen as a sample and come on..........you don't believe that if gen parts fit reps?!

 

[wat44]

marvelous replica personally checks the movement to ensure its ETA genuine swiss, Im told

 

[Epimetheus]

What about this?

Isn´t this a Swiss 2836 Eta?

 

[coop]

The problem is the dealers may not know an asian eta from a real one. I personnally think we have been getting asian etas for much longer then we think. And as good as the factories are getting at replicating these, its not to far fetched to believe that all we get are asian etas.

 

[automatics]

... and then turn it over to the 10-year old factory "workers" to have a go at.

tongue in cheek no doubt.

but having visited many factories in China.
most of the time it's not necessarily kids.
But possibly disenfranchised youth (15-25) from the poorer provinces.

just fyr.
child labour is actually pretty passe in many parts...

 

[Pix]

Well ETA has organized scarcity, why would we gen gen ETAs more than ever ?
I believe they all are clones, of different grades : some being passed as gen would be the best (material and accuracy), those passed as clones being of lower quality.
There is definitely a difference.

 

[coop]

Well ETA has organized scarcity, why would we gen gen ETAs more than ever ?
I believe they all are clones, of different grades : some being passed as gen would be the best (material and accuracy), those passed as clones being of lower quality.
There is definitely a difference.

I agree. And as such I never pay for gen eta, only clone. I think its been more then a couple years since gen etas were available.

 

[Pix]

I first decided to go for clones only, for this reason. After a few disappointments and confirmation of lower quality in assembling or matter (also more difficult to properly regulate), I went step by step for the "gen" ETAs : whatever they are, they seem to be better.

 

[trksh-bzr]

All I know is that the Chinese factories wouldn't lie. ;-)


I believe about 90% of the "swiss" movements sold in rep watches are clones. There is a lot of confusion between a "Swiss" movement vs. a "gen" movement vs. a "clone" movement. Most gen ETA movements we can get in reps will be Chinese-made ETA movements, and most of those will be ones that didn't quite meet QC standards. The rare "Swiss" made ETA or Sellita movement found in a rep will typically be an old reconditioned (barely) movement.
Buying a "clone" movement is actually the only way to be sure you are getting what you paid for, sadly.
As for the GMT movements, since the Chinese factory must add the complication for the GMT hand, I find it hard to believe they would start with the more expensive movement and then turn it over to the 10-year old factory "workers" to have a go at.
In general, I wish we could do something about all the bogus claims made by the dealers (usually just repeating what the factory has told them without any verification), such as "Swiss", "made using a gen as an example", "gen parts will fit", "Grade A++", etc. etc. etc.

I very much agree with your post, Roger! I do think that it too easy for the dealers to just pass on the info they have from the dealers! I'm not sure how to change it though, but I agree.
One detail though, "using a gen as example", I don't see any problem in that being true??? why would that not be true? buying a gen whatever, dissembling it carefully (for this I believe they use a actual watchsmith ) then replicating the parts to the degree of accuracy, that the chineese replica minestry allows (read POLEX or clown feet), and then assembling and then still having a gen worth XXX$ to either sell, or keep to yourself if you are the replica guy rich enough to keep it. yes I actually believe there are guys in this game or behind it with some big nice cars and gen watches.

-I know that last comment wasn't your main point at all, but I thought it would fit in this thread to discuss that "gen as example" issue.
so far, I have mainly been of the impression that "gen as example" not being true is a myth kept alive by dealers selling lower end reps.

 

[jmb]

One of my parts suppliers told me that there are 3 different levels of clone 2836 movements rated by finish and quality.

 

[wat44]

What about this?

Isn´t this a Swiss 2836 Eta?

im no expert, but NO, it doesnt look like ETA to me - first up, no ETA stamp

 

[Epimetheus]

im no expert, but NO, it doesnt look like ETA to me - first up, no ETA stamp

It was stated to be a Swiss 2836 Eta.
It is from my Timesshop Ultimate DSSD.
http://www.timesshop.net/product.php?id_product=1960

 

[wat44]

ask someone more knowledgable than I - but I dont see an ETA stamp

 

[trailboss99]

Hard to tell from that shot but the point is that even if it is a genuine ETA in GMT form it will have a badly made Chinese module hung off it to perform the GMT functions.

The rare "Swiss" made ETA or Sellita movement found in a rep will typically be an old reconditioned (barely) movement.

Ah now while that may be true for some ETAs (it isn't as bad as some of you think however) it is not true for the Sellitas. These are all new, there are no old ones, the MVT is barely a year old as it is. I also know for a fact the Robert buys in trays of new ETAs from the HK ETA agent and fits his own ETAs rather than relying on the factories to supply a gen MVT.



Col.

 

[wat44]

col - shouldnt there be a stamp at about 7 on that pic?

 

[sconehead]

@wat, I just blew the pic up to max res and there is an ETA stamp visible. The biggest 'tell' for me is the amount of cut outs for the balance shock...this seem's to have 3, which is correct for gen...mind you, who knows for sure seeing as the Chinese are so good at replication...could be the better grade clone we've heard about?

Reading the posts made in this thread only confirms my thoughts on the gen v clone thing, why would the factories use a more expensive movement to mod for a GMT function, it just wouldn't be a good economic descision, would it?


As far as I'm aware, the Selita movements are going to become more prevalent in our reps in the near future. I read a piece on them on one of the gen forums and they're supposed to be a top class movement, so if we're given a choice it's a no-brainer...happy days lie ahead...