Franken vintage Rolex. Where is the limit? Where is the basic?

[julien99999999]

IMO, for a vintage build, the gen movement is important for two purposes:
1. so that we could use gen dials without cutting their feet (if the feet were cut, the gen dial would be worthless)
2. so that we could use gen hands (99.9% of aftermarket ETA sub/ datejust hands suck; e.g., I could never stand the sight of cartel and clark sub hands)

and to a lesser extent,
3. so that we could use gen date disc

interesting point... pompompurin How modders deal with legless dials?

 

[pompompurin]

interesting point... pompompurin How modders deal with legless dials?

Some people are ok with chopping the feet off the following kind of genuine Rolex dial:
- genuine service dial
- less sought-after genuine vintage rolex dial (e.g., datejust, date, air king, etc)
- genuine blemished dial
- genuine refinished dial

But for most modders/ builders/ members, sanity and rationality kicks in: e.g., if someone spends $$$$$$ on a genuine meter first 5513 sub dial and puts it inside a cartel 5513 case by cutting the feet off... then it's sacrilegious.

Also, sometimes, genuine rolex dial can be bought without dial feet for discounted prices (as the previous owner chopped the feet off already). For 99% of my superfranken builds with ETA movements (that require a gen dial without feet), i try to buy a gen rolex dial without dial feet so that i don't have to cut it.

 

[julien99999999]

But for most modders/ builders/ members, sanity and rationality kicks in: e.g., if someone spends $$$$$$ on a genuine meter first 5513 sub dial and puts it inside a cartel 5513 case by cutting the feet off... then it's sacrilegious.

tripdog, did you read that?

 

[Revolper]

I just got the right watch in. At a first glance and without factoring in the obvious flaws the overall build quality and haptics are on par. I might do a detailed comparison later if there’s any interest (obviously those aren’t the exact same iteration but still).

 

[tripdog]

I just got the right watch in. At a first glance and without factoring in the obvious flaws the overall build quality and haptics are on par. I might do a detailed comparison later if there’s any interest (obviously those aren’t the exact same iteration but still).

You probably mean 'the watch on the right'.

So you bought it - congratulations - it's a good looking watch with IMO just the right amount of patina.

I think it would be very interesting for a lot of people to do a comparison between the 2. At first glance the differences are minimal - both watches have the same vintage look/feel, but the price difference is obviously significant.

 

[Revolper]

You probably mean 'the watch on the right'.

So you bought it - congratulations - it's a good looking watch with IMO just the right amount of patina.

I think it would be very interesting for a lot of people to do a comparison between the 2. At first glance the differences are minimal - both watches have the same vintage look/feel, but the price difference is obviously significant.

That’s exactly what I meant.

And thank you, I think it is spot on too. That said, I have yet to decide if I keep it. As you said, differences are minimal and if it wasn’t for the heritage and the (hopefully) good value I wouldn’t even bother.

Either way, your build will stay with me as a daily wear and I can only encourage anybody to take that road. Frankening not even needed IMO.

I will try to make a pictorial comparison on the weekend.

 

[julien99999999]

main difference...
right=> gen dial, from 65-80’s, gen DW
no?

But, there is a big big big issue here: a gmt should give you time in two different time zones. Not the same time twice.
Beautiful watches btw

 

[Revolper]

main difference...
right=> gen dial, from 65-80’s, gen DW
no?

But, there is a big big big issue here: a gmt should give you time in two different time zones. Not the same time twice.
Beautiful watches btw

No, older GMTs (read Rolex 1675) don't work like that. The GMT hand is "fixed" and simply follows the hour hand. You set the second time zone by rotating the bezel.

 

[julien99999999]

I was joking; but I still see 10.26 and 10.26. The « Trip » 6542 you sold me works perfectly (this guy is skilled )... But I glued the bezel...
So, gen Dial? Really nice catch.

 

[julien99999999]

5513 case for sale on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Vintage-Gents-Rolex-Submariner-200-Metres-First-5513-Case/202794252521
3500$ for now, but asymmetrical lugs btw, weird.

 

[julien99999999]

5513 case sold. Gone at 3900 euros... or 4300$

 

[Dizzy]

Vintage frankens are a lot harder to build these days with the price of Gen Rolex parts going through the roof. Most of mine are Gen dials and inserts and crowns, bracelets with eta movements. But these were built back when you could get a real 1680 dial for $400 and now they are $2000. I remember buying 1675 mk1 dials for $250 each and 16800 dials for $300. Rolex 703 crowns were $50 just about anywhere. I remember once I bought a bag of 20 preowned 703 crowns for $250 and they were all in fairly good condition. Things are a lot different now. And I also don’t like how people swap a crystal or a datewheel and call their watch a “franken”. It should have to have at least one major component Gen like a dial, bezel, case, bracelet or movement. A rep watch with a Gen datewheel and Gen crystal is not what I would consider a franken. Those are just disposable wear service parts. But others may not agree with me on that.

 

[blackboxes]

Haven't been online for awhile, but this topic was interesting so here's contributing anyways

In most cases, if money was no problem having a gen dial to makes a rep a franken (in most situations), and for me (personally) I prioritize based on the following...

Genuine dial (Or a really good alternative, because those cannot be unseen)
Genuine hands (esp the second hand for the subs)
Bezel / Insert as there's really no perfect aftermarket insert
702/700 Gen crowns (because 703 crowns look queer in a vintage build)

Things like xtal, bracelet, case, can still get by one way or another imho. But personally I love the use of a genuine vintage movement because of it's stability and you won't want to cut the feet off a genuine dial. For anything requiring date, it is a costly advantage to have a gen movement as well, because the datewheel sticks out.

I have the 4 builds below all running on 1530/60/70 movements, the ones on the left have gen dials and the ones of the right have dials by ivanabcxyz. All in all it comes down to working within your budgets and drawing the line on what makes a satisfactory project. Either way it's a rabbit hole with no end.

Enjoy the process either way!

 

[julien99999999]

Haven't been online for awhile, but this topic was interesting so here's contributing anyways

thanks for your imput, who worked on the bottom-right case?

 

[blackboxes]

thanks for your imput, who worked on the bottom-right case?

Thank you, I did it myself - files, dremel, and lots of practice!

 

[lolo1972sg]

Don’t know what should be the limit but this has gen hands (not the second hand though), gen movement and yet, far from perfect in the eyes of some experts.

 

[bigtiddygothgf]

Don’t know what should be the limit but this has gen hands (not the second hand though), gen movement and yet, far from perfect in the eyes of some experts.

Is that a Vietnam dial? If so, who did you purchase it from?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

 

[lolo1972sg]

Yes. A Vietnamese dial. Got this off m2m here in this forum.

 

[sfgerl]

Some people are ok with chopping the feet off the following kind of genuine Rolex dial:
- genuine service dial
- less sought-after genuine vintage rolex dial (e.g., datejust, date, air king, etc)
- genuine blemished dial
- genuine refinished dial

But for most modders/ builders/ members, sanity and rationality kicks in: e.g., if someone spends $$$$$$ on a genuine meter first 5513 sub dial and puts it inside a cartel 5513 case by cutting the feet off... then it's sacrilegious.

Also, sometimes, genuine rolex dial can be bought without dial feet for discounted prices (as the previous owner chopped the feet off already). For 99% of my superfranken builds with ETA movements (that require a gen dial without feet), i try to buy a gen rolex dial without dial feet so that i don't have to cut it.

I agree... I happened to get a genuine Rolex meters-first matte dial for a 5513 sub that Tripdog is going to build for me. Fortunately, the legs were already cut off (there was also evidence of previous double-sided tape use on the reverse), so I was able to get it at about 1/2 the cost of an intact one! Of course, it's going on an ETA movement.

 

[Growwatch]

Vintage watches are different from modern watches - they've aged. Some parts can't be imitated - the dial for instance.

I've just worked on a 'superfranken' 5513 with a 1570 movement, Phong case and a Ivansupremedarkoverlordmasterofdeathandallhebehold's guilt 5513 dial - the dial probably cost well over £1000, but it still looked like an aftermarket dial. That's disappointing, considering the costs.

What can't be imitated in a vintage watch - not even by MQ, Phong, Darkivanmasteroverlordblahblahetc, or even the demi-god that is TheSociety:

The dial.

The insert & it's pearl.

The crown.

And that's it - A case can be made to look 95% gen- aftermarket hands can be 95% of the gen and most people wouldn't notice these things anyway. Clasps are different, but they are much less visible. Links and end links, even experts would not know the difference sometimes. A good aftermarket crystal will look almost the same as a gen - but again, most people wouldn't notice the difference even when you explain it to them.

Movements, that's personal choice - but vintage movements are expensive to maintain (said superfranken 5513 is not complete because the watchmaker who 'serviced' the movement did so without dismantling and cleaning it . . . ) and aren't necessarily very accurate or reliable.

Like most people, you may have a limited budget, and you are probably attracted to vintage watches because of the way they look.

Some people will build a franken from almost all gen parts - as yodog is doing with his GMT, but that's a big budget build, and it's a one-off - he probably won't do it again, at least for a while.

Because most people can't tell the difference between rep dials and gens, rep inserts and gens, or rep crystals and gens, they like to have something tangible that confirms and reinforces the high value aspect of the build - a gen movement fulfills this role as nobody makes a rep of the 15** movements.

The Ferrari Testarossa is a great looking vintage sports car. If you had to choose between an almost visually exact copy of a Ferrari Testarossa, but which had only had 85 % of the engine performance of the original, or a kit car which only looked reasonably like a Ferrari Testarossa, but with the original engine, with 100 % of that engine performance, which would you choose?

Thank you, its so interssting