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First Post and a question

jblazexxx

Do not accept unsolicited offers
22/1/11
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Hi all,
After reviewing numerous threads I pulled the trigger and ordered my first watch 2 weeks ago. I got it today from a trusted dealer and couldnt be happier.
I do have a question though. After seeing various prices for the same watch amongst the trusted dealers, it got me thinking...

If we pay say $240 for a watch, how much do you think the dealer pays for it? I was just curious what you all think it costs to produce a replica and what the dealer mark up is as a %?

Thanks and I have really enjoyed and learned a lot from this site.

John
 

bigdeal

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21/8/10
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I've wondered that myself... My 100% guess based on absolutely no information on the subject would be about 75%. i.e. watch sold for $175 costs them around $100...

(not suggesting they should work thinner, just pulling a number out of my arse...)
 

murklemark

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28/7/10
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According to some of the posts i read by dealers the margins on high-end reps are tight, but if you think about it, the movements are heavily mass produced so aren't really going to cost more than a few dollars, the rest of the watch is produced from a variety of smaller factories then assembled in the basement of a house. I think it's more like 200-300% mark-up but then this is all guess work from me.
 

jblazexxx

Do not accept unsolicited offers
22/1/11
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So you think around 75% markup. Im not at all upset about what I paid for this watch, but, its always interesting to think about what the manufacturing cost is.

I was thinking (for a $200 watch). $150 to make, then $50 dealer markup

John
 

phillycheez

Respected Member
6/6/09
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I don't think mark up is anymore than 15% to 20% from our dealers. I can even see it being less than that depending on the watch...

I can see a lot of middle men in this game.

Thats my theory....

This is a market based on pushing as many units possible ... always low profit margins in that game. Again, depends on the watch.
 

jblazexxx

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22/1/11
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I meant, manufacturer charges 150 to dealer. So, maybe 100 to make, then sell to dealer at $150
 

bigdeal

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According to some of the posts i read by dealers the margins on high-end reps are tight, but if you think about it, the movements are heavily mass produced so aren't really going to cost more than a few dollars, the rest of the watch is produced from a variety of smaller factories then assembled in the basement of a house. I think it's more like 200-300% mark-up but then this is all guess work from me.

all true, but for every step in the process there is somebody taking a profit. I'd doubt the markup is that high for the dealer by the time it actually gets to them. If it was, i'd expect someone out there to come around and undercut all the other dealers by a significant margin....but who knows..

So you think around 75% markup. Im not at all upset about what I paid for this watch, but, its always interesting to think about what the manufacturing cost is.

I was thinking (for a $200 watch). $150 to make, then $50 dealer markup

John

Yeah, I'd have guessed about $80-$85, but I'm 100% guessing...
 

phillycheez

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6/6/09
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It's rumored that Rolex ADs mark up to at least 40%.... that's an example of an "exclusive " high end watch.
 

lourentgarnier

Renowned Member
4/4/10
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i heard about dealers that if the watch is seized by customs they ship again for no cost; this means that they are making at least 100% ( they have to pay also shipping) because i don't think they would loose money.
 

slimslim

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18/9/10
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i love speculation. how about 30% on the high end stuff and 60% on the 21j stuff? this is without any info at all. but i love to bet.... if anyone has any idea with actual info please speak up :)
 

jesseharmon81

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17/6/10
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i heard about dealers that if the watch is seized by customs they ship again for no cost; this means that they are making at least 100% ( they have to pay also shipping) because i don't think they would loose money.

I don't believe 100%, but would bet between 30-40%. They ship another watch because of customer loyalty, and from being on the boards long enough I see most of end up buying 5-10 watches...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

murklemark

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28/7/10
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But the cost of labour and parts especially on the illegal markets is so low I don't see how the factories would charge $100, movements don't cost alot, watchsmiths over there charge $20 compared to the $100+ they charge to work on movements in the western world. I reckon atleast 100%.
 

aratron

Active Member
8/2/11
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AD mark up is much more than 40%.. more in the range of 70-80%

From what I gather. Each AD charges different markup. Rolex is 40% is the lowest markup of all. Patek Philippe is the most markup at 142%.

So say you want to buy a $10K MSRP Rolex. 40% discounted is what the dealer pays for his inventory = $6K. IF, that is a BIG IF, the dealer can sell that watch to MSRP princing. He can make $4K which is 66.6% his investment. But most of the time, they are forced to discount their pricing in the real world.

In the past, Rolexes AD used to have higher margins. What I am saying here reflects pricing structure as of 2011.
***
As far as markup on reps goes.... I think it can all be worked out... it depends on the model and quantity in question. The rep makers love to reverse engineer watches, why don't we reverse engineer their pricing structure. Some models they are making a higher margin but less quantities, but some have low margin and high quantities.

It breaks down to

1. Movement (which rep makers do not make, supplied by Seagull, Hongzhou, Nanning, etc)
2. Parts + labor - case, crystal, dial, hands, lume, print, bracelet, modifications to the movement parts, etc (this is what they actually produces so where they can buried their margin)
3. Markup for maker
4. Markup for dealer

I will use an low margin but volume example. Timeshop's noob sub 21J speical for $48.

DG2813, or NN Movement takes about $10 ~ $13 I believe.

I have seen homage solid stainless steel sub with mineral crystal retailing $28 in China... I believe the cost of the various parts should be in the 12~$17 range. And given the laser etch crystal, rehaut engravings, and many other add ons will yield a bit extra. Just say it cost $20 for ease of calculation.

So we got a $30~$33 watch with $15~18 of margin shared amongst the maker and dealer. Say they play fair and go 50/50 (probably not in most cases) = $7~$9 on a product that is $48.

We are looking at a 17~24% markup. Meager ~
***
But if you apply the same equation to asian 2836 (retails for $65) or a7750 (retail for $120), the "fake ETA 2836" ( no idea for the junky swiss parts mov, but genuine volume buys on ETA is about $90 for 2824 while they were still supplying)

Double or triple your parts cost for not so common models (unlike fake rollies, no readily available parts so makers need to custom make just about everything hence higher cost) But since not many ppl make the same watch, they command more $ as well.

I can safely say dealer must have 20~30% margin to make it worth while.

In terms of the lost packages ... it is like insurance, cost of doing business, how many of them do they actually get lost or seized percentage wise ?... dedicate 3~5% dealer's net cost should be more then sufficient.

In the end, it is economy of scale. A volume's game. Dealer is not interested at courting 1:1 queens. The margin is reasonable but volume is the only way they can sustain a successful business.
 

lourentgarnier

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4/4/10
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......in any case i would just say that considering quality and excluding some prices that from my point of view are unjustified, no matter what resellers charge, prices are just fine!
 

phillycheez

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6/6/09
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A lot of you are making the assumption that all our dealers buy directly from the factory.... you really think if you send a pic to hont of a watch he doesn't have in stock he walks over to the FACTORY and buys one? No,he went to the market and found the one your asking and bought it from another dealer who bought that watch from another dealer... Most of our dealers carry as little stock possible.


Also, are people trying to estimate the cost of the parts to make it and comparing it directly to the end users price? Cause thats just not comparable....
 

aratron

Active Member
8/2/11
241
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A lot of you are making the assumption that all our dealers buy directly from the factory.... you really think if you send a pic to hont of a watch he doesn't have in stock he walks over to the FACTORY and buys one? No,he went to the market and found the one your asking and bought it from another dealer who bought that watch from another dealer... Most of our dealers carry as little stock possible.


Also, are people trying to estimate the cost of the parts to make it and comparing it directly to the end users price? Cause thats just not comparable....

Yes, you are right. There are multiple tiers of distribution dealers so the chances are our trusted dealers who retails are being PAID LESS NOT MORE. Which translates into thinner margin. But the up side is that since they carry little inventory... they have less to lose as well. It is just like any other drop ship internet business.

The second point about end user pricing is also correct. I am simply stating the cheapest retail prices in the US and making reasonable estimation, nothing more. These are reference points only. While I am confident about genuine ETA pricing since I had some experience in the past and ETA 2824 is retailing alot more then $90 ... more in range of $130. I have no idea about the junky swiss parts movement. It is true that buying large quantities of 2813 from DG or NN can certainly bring the cost down for makers... but how much margin can you squeeze out? The bottom line is still the same, maker or dealers are not making bank in a $48 sub and markup is no where near 100% for dealers.

So why do dealers even want to be in a business that have such a low margin? VOLUME. Think about all the homage brands out there. How many watch do you think they sell a month? Now slap on ROLEX on the dial you are instantly selling thousands...

Another point I want to bring out is that most makers are small shops who just manufacture or assemble watch parts - case, dial, hands etc. And if we really want to get technical, we can even reverse calculate the pricing structure down to raw material for each component (stainless steel 316, 305, 904 ...) machining cost for higher end reps (end mills, CNC), casting for lower ends (mass produced cases), machine wears, labor ... etc.
 

appled

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26/8/10
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I think the scandalous thing is how much margin the ADs and manufacturers must make - you can buy a very good quality PAM111 rep for $98 - maybe not totally accurate to gen, but if a factory in China can produce it and make a profit, the gens cant cost much more to produce (and if they do, they should rethink their sourcing policy). After all, they use the same amount of steel (but maybe a bit less superlume...)
With a retail price of GBP3500 (about $5600) that means that assuming that the reps are sold with NO markup at all, the gens have a markup of at least 5700%, $5602 profit and $98 cost. Even adding to the cost for QC etc, can it really add over $5000 to the cost of each unit?