First Panerai, advice needed

[The Rod]

Dear forum members,

I am mulling the purchase of my first replica, and after having read about trusted dealers, engagement rules, QC pics, super reps, common flaws in replicas and so on, I am currently trying narrow down my choice.

Panerai, and specifically the Luminor, has always appealed me, but I always dismissed it as too big for my small wrists (6.5, albeit flat). After a few trips to ADs I have noticed that apparently a few 44 mm models actually fit decently, probably due to the flatness of my wrist and the lugs curving down. That or I'm in total denial

Before completing my purchase I would kindly ask you for some advice

At the moment my three favourite models are:

- PAM1359 S ZF 1:1 Best Edition Black Dial on Black Leather Strap ZFP9010
(https://www.intime01.co/panerai/321...lack-dial-on-black-leather-strap-zfp9010.html)
- PAM 172 F-series DSN (http://www.dsnwatches.com/2015/02/15/pam-172f/)
- PAM 590 (https://www.intime01.co/promotions/...-8-giorni-brevettato-on-asso-strap-p5000.html)

Finally I also read very good things about the PAM 390 - Luminor Boutique Edition (44mm) N-series Noob but it seems out of stock in all TD's websites.

My goals for this first rep are the following: it does not have to be perfect in terms of appearance (90% compared to rep is enough), but it has to work fine in terms of movement, I wouldn't want to have to bring it to a watchmaker after a few weeks of use. Also I like a lot both blue small seconds and tobacco/brown dials.

What do you think would be the best choice in this case?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Caesar]

If you're looking for a reliable movement, can't go wrong with the 6497. Bulletproof.

You may also consider one of these. TB has a fantastic deal on them atm.

http://www.tb-688.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2423

Good luck! I'm sure you'll be happy with whichever you choose.

 

[mysterio]

The PAM390 uses an A6497 movement so it's a manual wind and very reliable. Tobacco dial. You don't have to get the Noob as although it is the best version of the PAM390, the H-factory version is also good enough to be in the super rep category. So definitely above 90% in terms of replication. Ticks all the boxes.

 

[Juraj_G]

Yep, there is just my personal observation and opinion about the 390. Its beautiful watch, but for me it became boring pretty soon, on top, due to the brown dial, its not so versatile IMO like the black dialed PAMs. Just my 0,02


Sent from my iPhone using RWI

 

[mysterio]

Yep, there is just my personal observation and opinion about the 390. Its beautiful watch, but for me it became boring pretty soon, on top, due to the brown dial, its not so versatile IMO like the black dialed PAMs. Just my 0,02


Sent from my iPhone using RWI

Well it's in the OP's list of must have features. Personally I find the tobacco brown dial just as versatile as the black dial as it is still a neutral color.

 

[d4m.test]

Thank you for all the replies! In terms of fit/comfort (especially considering smaller wrists) do you think there is any difference between the classic luminor case of the 390/590 and the 1950 style of the 1359?

 

[groot]

Given that you:

1. like a brown/tobacco dial
2. prefer a more reliable movement

I would second the PAM390 as well. I have the H fac version and really like it a lot.

Hope someone would be able to chime in on whether the PAM 1359 wears more comfortably. Personally, PAMs are heavy except for the titanium models. Straps are usually thick so as to hold the watch in place hence the impact of the lug shape may not be as huge as other watches but YMMV.

 

[d4m.test]

I know that the 6497 is the one of the classic movements design and therefore after many years of use is supposed to be bullet proof, but then isn't the 7750 supposed to be the same? Or in this case the asian clone is less reliable?

On another note, after further research (man, there are way too many PAMs out there!) I have come across the PAM 1392 ZF and the PAM 676 V6F, both at 42mm, which might be an even better fit for my wrist size.

Re: the 1392 I read that a few iterations did not have the correct case shape (stubby lugs?), can anyone please explain how relevant is this flaw and if it has been recently corrected?

https://www.intime01.co/panerai/402...lack-dial-on-black-leather-strap-zfp9010.html

Re: the 676 it does not have neither the blue hands nor the tobacco dial but at 13mm thinness it could be a great fit! Can anyone pleasevcomment on the reliability of this asian 23 jewels movement?

https://www.intime01.co/panerai/3190-pam-676-v6f-1-1-best-edition-on-black-strap-p999.html

Sorry for the many questions, still trying to make up my mind I think another trip to the AD is due soon...

 

[mysterio]

I would suggest reading more as you can't really say you've researched enough after only 5 days on the forum. Like the question on the stubby lugs, it's wrong (and that is relevant) because the PAM01XXX family, of which the PAM01392 is part of, uses a new movement which allows for a new case design, which aside from being thinner, has longer lugs compared to the ones used by the previous PAM00XXX series. Now is the watch you've referenced using the correct case? That's for you to research on.

Can't comment on the reliability of the movement on the PAM676 as not many watches use it and it's relatively new so no data on reliability. If you like its design then you'll have to bite the bullet and get it.

 

[d4m.test]

I would suggest reading more as you can't really say you've researched enough after only 5 days on the forum. Like the question on the stubby lugs, it's wrong (and that is relevant) because the PAM01XXX family, of which the PAM01392 is part of, uses a new movement which allows for a new case design, which aside from being thinner, has longer lugs compared to the ones used by the previous PAM00XXX series. Now is the watch you've referenced using the correct case? That's for you to research on.

Can't comment on the reliability of the movement on the PAM676 as not many watches use it and it's relatively new so no data on reliability. If you like its design then you'll have to bite the bullet and get it.

Trust me, I'm a very fast reader Anyway, thank you, this info already helps a lot!

The most recent thread I had found on the 1392 was this one: https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/new-zf-1392.385457/ about the New ZF release (the one I referenced), and there you commented that the ZF version is more accurate in the movement area but it does not look like it has the correct case as the one being used by the V6F version. However, looking at pictures at Intime website, and pictures from the GEN found online to me it appears that the ZF version has indeed the correct longer and thinner lugs:

GEN

ZF

V6F

Am I missing something here?

Regarding the 23J, is there some more reference about the movement (like the real name/code, or from which other one it was copied/developed?) I can find several threads, also on other replicas forums on a 23j movement, even pretty old ones, but then I don't know if they are talking about the same 23j movement (if you say it's relatively new)...

 

[mysterio]

Indeed you can read fast, I'll give you that, but there is some info missing in your reading, mainly because you have a different reference website. When I made those statements, I was basing off pictures from the puretime website (which typically has a larger catalog so I can compare versions/factory releases). It seems during the short time when I made that statement one month ago, the ZF version had indeed been updated in terms of the case, which now sports the longer lugs. However, the one on the intime website has a markedly longer lug compared even to the updated one on the puretime website, which is closer to the gen shape. As you can see the lugs on the V6F were already the longer shaped-like-gen lugs.

ZF

V6F

However the movement on the V6F is using an A23J movement, with the balance wheel @6, which was its issue previously. The ZF one is still using the correct A7750-based P.9010 movement with the balance wheel @11.

ZF

V6F

Anyway, since the ZF version on the intime website is using both the A7750 based P.9010 movement and the correct case with the thinner and longer lugs, that would be the best choice for now.

I just recalled the information on the PAM676 (which unfortunately still isn't the correct 10.5mm thickness of the gen, which made me lose interest). The A23J movement on the PAM676 which mimics the P.1000 on the gen is basically an A7750 with the winding gears modified and the rotor removed. It's similar to the modification done on the movement used on the PAM346 just with a different plate decoration.

https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/pam-346-kw-movement-identity-longevity.312901/

So the movement has already a somewhat established base but there are some considerations with regards to the movement like winding too much (read on the thread), but the thickness, which is 14% thicker than the gen, is the more problematic issue for me. Similar to the PAM1392 before the update, if I were to choose between the correct looking case and correct looking movement, i'd pick the correct looking case as that is always visible to the casual observer. But buy it if you really like the design.

 

[d4m.test]

Indeed you can read fast, I'll give you that, but there is some info missing in your reading, mainly because you have a different reference website. When I made those statements, I was basing off pictures from the puretime website (which typically has a larger catalog so I can compare versions/factory releases). It seems during the short time when I made that statement one month ago, the ZF version had indeed been updated in terms of the case, which now sports the longer lugs. However, the one on the intime website has a markedly longer lug compared even to the updated one on the puretime website, which is closer to the gen shape. As you can see the lugs on the V6F were already the longer shaped-like-gen lugs.

ZF
V6F

However the movement on the V6F is using an A23J movement, with the balance wheel @6, which was its issue previously. The ZF one is still using the correct A7750-based P.9010 movement with the balance wheel @11.
ZF
V6F

Anyway, since the ZF version on the intime website is using both the A7750 based P.9010 movement and the correct case with the thinner and longer lugs, that would be the best choice for now.

I just recalled the information on the PAM676 (which unfortunately still isn't the correct 10.5mm thickness of the gen, which made me lose interest). The A23J movement on the PAM676 which mimics the P.1000 on the gen is basically an A7750 with the winding gears modified and the rotor removed. It's similar to the modification done on the movement used on the PAM346 just with a different plate decoration.

https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/pam-346-kw-movement-identity-longevity.312901/

So the movement has already a somewhat established base but there are some considerations with regards to the movement like winding too much (read on the thread), but the thickness, which is 14% thicker than the gen, is the more problematic issue for me. Similar to the PAM1392 before the update, if I were to choose between the correct looking case and correct looking movement, i'd pick the correct looking case as that is always visible to the casual observer. But buy it if you really like the design.

Thank you very much, now I have all the elements I need for a good first purchase I hope I didn't come off as too nitpicking, but being already a watch collector of affordable watches (especially microbrands) I tend to put a lot of attention into details

 

[mysterio]

Thank you very much, now I have all the elements I need for a good first purchase I hope I didn't come off as too nitpicking, but being already a watch collector of affordable watches (especially microbrands) I tend to put a lot of attention into details

Well you didn't come off as nitpicking, but if you pay attention into details as you say, seeing the differences in the lug shape and the movement would be pretty easy for you.

 

[d4m.test]

Question regarding the PAM 590, if I may : i understand that the most common replica found on TDs websites is, even if a quality and well made watch, severely flawed as a replica, due to wrong dial colour, wrong hands and wrong position of the balance wheel. However, I was browsing today trustytime website (which I know is not TD due to collusion practices), and found this:

http://www.ttw-1388.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=12014

While the small seconds hand still looks too big compared to the GEN, both dial and lume colour seem spot on.

What do you think?

EDIT: after a trip to the AD just now I can say that the lume looks way too yellowish compared to GEN...

REP

GEN

 

[gvln]

get 000

 

[nalomb]

You might also look at the 372 -- but to your given choices, the 390 is probably your best bet. If it were me, I'd get the either the 372/390 and the 1359 in one package and let the party start. Hold on to your wigs and keys ...

 

[d4m.test]

Update: in the end, after trying out the Gen at the local AD and reading a bit about the p3000/5000 superclone I went for tobacco/titanium combo and bought the PAM 564 Q ZF from Toro Bravo:

http://www.tb-688.com/index.php?route=product/product&keyword=Pam+564&product_id=2368

Even knowing of the issue with the small seconds hand I liked it too much. And i am also really curious to try out a chinese manufacture movement with almost 8 days of PR

Hope to be able to post pics of the actual watch soon!

 

[nalomb]

Interesting choice -- I like that combo as well (particularly in the 057). You likely won't get 8 days on this one. It is a modified 6497 and has the same 48-72 hour power reserve. Enjoy and try not to chew of your fingertips waiting!

 

[d4m.test]

Interesting choice -- I like that combo as well (particularly in the 057). You likely won't get 8 days on this one. It is a modified 6497 and has the same 48-72 hour power reserve. Enjoy and try not to chew of your fingertips waiting!

From the pictures it does look like a p5000 superclone and not a modified 6497 as it has the correct balance wheel position. Also all sources i've found on this watch state the 564Q ZF has the p5000 superclone, not the 6497.

I'll try to keep my hands in my pockets

 

[mysterio]

From the pictures it does look like a p5000 superclone and not a modified 6497 as it has the correct balance wheel position. Also all sources i've found on this watch state the 564Q ZF has the p5000 superclone, not the 6497.

I'll try to keep my hands in my pockets

Well let's call it for what it is, a P.3000 superclone movement with P.5000 decorative plates. Also, although it does have a surprisingly long power reserve being intended only to copy a 3-day movement, the P.3000 can probably comfortably reach only around 140-150 hours or 6 days PR. Plus the accuracy of the movement goes down when the watch is run for more than 3 days without winding starting on a full wind. Anyway, it has no power reserve gauge anywhere so the less than 8 days PR is not really a big deal.