Finishing and Gen-like aura: comparing two factories-ARF and ZZF

[Kayatsu1]

Hi,
first of all let me start by saying that the aim of this topic is not to generate a unproductive discussion "WHTBS" style. I have owned both ZZF and ARF reps and this doesn't want to be a confrontation between the accuracy of their specific models or a personal advice to me, but rather a general discussion where everybody can explain its own fact-based opinion about the level of finishing and the "Gen-like" aura of the products of the two factories. So, let's start.

I am the kind of guy who cares a lot about the level of brushing, polishing and the perceived quality of parts, even in my reps. I am always very pleasantly surprised when I buy a new rep and when I wear it I have that Gen-like feeling. For this reason, personally, when I buy a rep I tend to go always for the top factories and I tend to care less about some details that are important for some other guys here, such as the level of replication of fonts, engravings etc. I can't stand wrong cases for example, but I am quite ok with other deviations from gen. The Rolex factory that is traditionally known for paying attention to finishing is ARF. Their bracelets and clasps are for sure the best in the game, but they usually put intentionally trivial flaws in their watches (one over all the others: DW). I have owned some of their reps and I was pleased about them. Then it came ZZF. ZZF is only producing subs right now but they will surely increase their offer in the next months. Even if I still think that at least their LN sub is a bit overhyped (the one that i have owned wasn't that good) I still have to admit that they produce quality watches and that their reps give you that gen aura feeling too.

Confronting ARF and ZZF reps I had I wasn't able to decide a clear winner, and I am very curious to know what's your take: quality and gen-feeling wise do you prefer ARF or ZZF?

I have decided to start this topic because I think it's a nice new perspective of watching at the factories which has never been deeply treated. Enjoy the discussion!

 

[Dirkjon]

I chose the ARF V3 in May this year because, at the time, I was seeing a lot of misaligned bezel insert and dial markers on the ZZF QC pics that were being posted and the ARF's seemed to be spot on, albeit slightly brighter, generally. Fit and finish seemed be be a bit better on the ARF as well, judging by the QC posts from people who had both. The known DW font error on the ARF wasn't an issue for me because I already had a gen DW (along with a gen xtal) waiting to be installed when I received the watch. I knew that the SA3135 movement was a risk and the the VR3135 in the ZZF was more reliable (a risk that I took and lost when the quickset function wouldn't work and the date changed at odd times even after servicing. Ultimately, I took my modder's advice and sent the watch back to him to have the VR3135 installed. So, my opinion is ARF V3 with gen or other datewheel and the VR3135 movement due to it's reliability and the ease of swapping gen parts in.

 

[Kayatsu1]

I chose the ARF V3 in May this year because, at the time, I was seeing a lot of misaligned bezel insert and dial markers on the ZZF QC pics that were being posted and the ARF's seemed to be spot on, albeit slightly brighter, generally. Fit and finish seemed be be a bit better on the ARF as well, judging by the QC posts from people who had both. The known DW font error on the ARF wasn't an issue for me because I already had a gen DW (along with a gen xtal) waiting to be installed when I received the watch. I knew that the SA3135 movement was a risk and the the VR3135 in the ZZF was more reliable (a risk that I took and lost when the quickset function wouldn't work and the date changed at odd times even after servicing. Ultimately, I took my modder's advice and sent the watch back to him to have the VR3135 installed. So, my opinion is ARF V3 with gen or other datewheel and the VR3135 movement due to it's reliability and the ease of swapping gen parts in.

Thank you for your answer. However, this topic is more about a comparison between the two factories finishing abilities... Not about who has the best sub.

 

[muiramas]

Thank you for your answer. However, this topic is more about a comparison between the two factories finishing abilities... Not about who has the best sub.

The scope of your question is very narrow, and the answer is likely skewed by factory loyalty (silly, I know, but it exists: I have one / Smoke said so, and so its the best etc.) batch variation, and depth of experience.

I have an ARF sub, from April 18, which places it as a V1 - before they went nuts with the date wheel. I’ve ordered a ZZF v2 for a freind. My observation was that the ARF bracelet and clasp were clearly better - which is significant as they are the only moving parts. I also preferred the dial and hands on the ARF as well as the edges on the case which I found sharper on the ZZF. Brushing is the same quality.

Based on finish, fit and feel, I did not regard the ZZF v2 as an upgrade, and will wait a while to see what happens with ZZF and other factories.

 

[Kayatsu1]

The scope of your question is very narrow, and the answer is likely skewed by factory loyalty (silly, I know, but it exists: I have one / Smoke said so, and so its the best etc.) batch variation, and depth of experience.

I have an ARF sub, from April 18, which places it as a V1 - before they went nuts with the date wheel. I’ve ordered a ZZF v2 for a freind. My observation was that the ARF bracelet and clasp were clearly better - which is significant as they are the only moving parts. I also preferred the dial and hands on the ARF as well as the edges on the case which I found sharper on the ZZF. Brushing is the same quality.

Based on finish, fit and feel, I did not regard the ZZF v2 as an upgrade, and will wait a while to see what happens with ZZF and other factories.

Thank you for your answer! Well, my conclusion is that, after comparing different ARF to ZZF, probably ARF has still the edge in terms of steel. I don’t know why but the steel they use just feels better. The brushing level is far from gen in both factories and actually quite similar. Where I saw a difference was in the quality of CF factory parts.Their parts were, for me, of higher perceived quality with respect to the ARF ones.

I am aware that this is subjective and can vary across models, batches and personal preferences but still I think it’s interesting to focalize on quality rather than replication level (where ARF unfortunately at the moment can’t compete with ZZF)

 

[Subdued]

Is ARF still breathing?

 

[Repmaster1337]

Is ARF still breathing?

ARF still have the best "gen feel" and finish.

 

[Kayatsu1]

ARF still have the best "gen feel" and finish.

Thanks for your answer! Can you tell us a bit more?

 

[Subdued]

ARF still have the best "gen feel" and finish.

Yeah. And it seems the “gen feel” comes from their bracelet.

 

[tenx139]

Here’s an article in Chinese that you will need to use google translator in Chrome to read.

Claims that ARF re-issued v3 end of July with small improvements.

http://www.noobvip.com/24805.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[srhoque]

ARF and ZZF are end assembly factories. The parts are actually manufactured by individual entities which is why almost always the best Rep ends up being a Hybrid build. For case, I will take Noob v10 for rehaut and ARF for bracelet, Dial/Hands, crystal and bezel assembly, ZZF (CF) for Insert and VR3135 movement. It is very easy to refinish case and bracelet to your standards, so I would rather focus on a solid foundation (which is the movement, dial, hands and insert for me)

 

[Kayatsu1]

ARF and ZZF are end assembly factories. The parts are actually manufactured by individual entities which is why almost always the best Rep ends up being a Hybrid build. For case, I will take Noob v10 for rehaut and ARF for bracelet, Dial/Hands, crystal and bezel assembly, ZZF (CF) for Insert and VR3135 movement. It is very easy to refinish case and bracelet to your standards, so I would rather focus on a solid foundation (which is the movement, dial, hands and insert for me)

I understand, but here the point was comparing the products (not only submariner, in general) from the two factories to understand what's their attitude towards finish and quality. For the refinish part, I don't think it's that simple to do so.. You would need a skilled watchmaker and a correct steel grade to start.

 

[srhoque]

I understand, but here the point was comparing the products (not only submariner, in general) from the two factories to understand what's their attitude towards finish and quality. For the refinish part, I don't think it's that simple to do so.. You would need a skilled watchmaker and a correct steel grade to start.

Send it to Jonj480 His metalwork skills are second to none.

 

[Silver Fox Mulder]

ARF and ZZF are end assembly factories. The parts are actually manufactured by individual entities which is why almost always the best Rep ends up being a Hybrid build. For case, I will take Noob v10 for rehaut and ARF for bracelet, Dial/Hands, crystal and bezel assembly, ZZF (CF) for Insert and VR3135 movement. It is very easy to refinish case and bracelet to your standards, so I would rather focus on a solid foundation (which is the movement, dial, hands and insert for me)

I feel this is accurate to an extent, and I dont like it... my take away is that factories vary in degrees of replication somewhere between 85 and 95%.

I personally don't care for modding I want best out of box but this is more or less a pipe dream.

Unless I am willing to source parts x, y and z to franken a watch then I will always have a watch that fluctuates between the values stated above because factories don't actually want to manufacture a 98% replica.

A 98% replica would mean having to acknowledge that your `base watch` would still need additional components at an additional cost ergo your $500 base watch would potentially cost $1500 or more to get to the aforementioned 98% accuracy.

I mean I dont care for any replica brand that much to sink money into that type of endeavour. I would rather buy a quality Tissot or Tudor or Victorinox..

Im a noob, I have one rep I'm happy with and one on the way, sub $500, I'm ok with that.. but knowing that some of the flaws are intentional doesn't sit right with me.

Do TDs offer some sort of build your own watch option? A BP dial, an ARF case ZFF hands or DW... maybe they should? That type of option you would know 100% you are getting the best out of the box alternatively you get stuck with a watch that has intentional flaws or you take it upon yourself to become a modder albeit somewhat unwillingly.

 

[Duckber]

ARF and ZZF are end assembly factories. The parts are actually manufactured by individual entities which is why almost always the best Rep ends up being a Hybrid build. For case, I will take Noob v10 for rehaut and ARF for bracelet, Dial/Hands, crystal and bezel assembly, ZZF (CF) for Insert and VR3135 movement. It is very easy to refinish case and bracelet to your standards, so I would rather focus on a solid foundation (which is the movement, dial, hands and insert for me)

Isn't the insert on ZZF (CF) worse than ARF since the engraved numerals looks very dim and not gen-like in low lighting? I thought because of this that ARF has the better insert.

 

[Kayatsu1]

Isn't the insert on ZZF (CF) worse than ARF since the engraved numerals looks very dim and not gen-like in low lighting? I thought because of this that ARF has the better insert.

Mine was very dull, now it seems improved

 

[m5smg2]

I’m also very particular about fit and finish. I’ve never held a ZZF, but I do have ARF V3 that has the updated date. Im in awe of my ARF precise case machining with refined beveled edges and smooth gen like brushing. Also important to me is consistency through the case, bracelet and clasp—as if they were all made in one factory (I don’t know that they are).

 

[Kayatsu1]

I’m also very particular about fit and finish. I’ve never held a ZZF, but I do have ARF V3 that has the updated date. Im in awe of my ARF precise case machining with refined beveled edges and smooth gen like brushing. Also important to me is consistency through the case, bracelet and clasp—as if they were all made in one factory (I don’t know that they are).

Thank you! You have totally got what the aim of this topic was. Yes, ARF has been very good regarding fit and finish. I would be curious to hear from you when you will have a ZZF. Beautiful shots!