Explain this: Gen Panerai Old Mvmnt Flared Balance Wheel?

[daytona4me]

Ok, so a dead giveaway on the asian movements is the flared balance wheel... right ??? That is what we have been told for a very long time... right??

So why do I find on p-sti this photo which shows the pre-v 6497 movements with flared balance wheels?

 

[ewing]

there was a comparison by Vacuum of the swiss-asian movts...
he noted that the asian 6497 had the "correct" flared balance wheel and shock protection (incabloc) while the Swiss had the "incorrect" straight balannce wheel and shock protection (novodiac)

so my guess is that this is the way it is on gen movt...

 

[pete2528ca]

because we are like sheep being led to slaughter.

i had an interesting discussion with my watchsmith in town just yesterday. he is an old finlander who has been fixing watches most of his life. to him, he dosn't give a rats arse if it is a genuine or a fake, he is all about the benjamins. however, i brought him a movement to look at. it was an 6497 i bought on fleebay to build another project off of, and he said it was one of the nicest looking movements he has seen. workmanship was top notch. anyway, the moral of the story is we got on the topic of panerai movements, and he said, he has NO idea how panerai can justify charging $3K for a base model watch when the movement is EXACTLY the same as the one i had dropped off to him. he then grabbed a panerai gen movement he had in his safe that he was servicing, and took it apart in front of my eyes, he then took mine (which was also being brought in for servicing), and proceded to take that one apart. he then showed me how many of the parts were EXACTLY the same. he does not understand how they justify charging the money they do for anything other than their in house movements. he then opened up a tag heuer, and a festina and showed me the exact same movement in each watch. the only difference was about $1500.

he also went on to state, what many of us allready do, that a good quality panerai base rep is as good as any genuine panerai base watch. if you have a good engine, a relitivly good dial, and some mods done to it, you will have a watch that will last forever. at this point i showed him the 009 i built, and he said see what i mean, the time was taken to put in a proper cannon pinion, the hands were painted on the sides to get rid of the left over luminova, and it was cleaned inside the case to avoid dust. he said that it would be hard pressed to convince that it wasn't a gen, not that i would do it anyway.

anyway, never mind what the panaristi say. most of them dont know shit from shinola, or for that matter a gen 6497 to a properly made rep one.

enjoy what we have and wear them in good health.

 

[daytona4me]

there was a comparison by Vacuum of the swiss-asian movts...
he noted that the asian 6497 had the "correct" flared balance wheel and shock protection (incabloc) while the Swiss had the "incorrect" straight balannce wheel and shock protection (novodiac)

so my guess is that this is the way it is on gen movt...

I really dont think there is a "correct" shock protection but rather the watchmakers preference. How could a swiss incabloc make a watch an asian or a swiss novodiac make a watch a swiss / asian.. They are both used in 6497 although you seem to find more novodiac in 2836 and 2824 movements, and more incabloc shocks in 6497 6498 movements.

I really think this photo blows the theory that flared balance wheels means swiss. ^^^^ that picture above proves it, those are gen movements.

 

[hooligan]

D, the flared wheel is not a "tell" that it is a REP movement, it's a "tell" that it is an ASIAN movement. My gen 210 has flared spokes on the balance wheel and the Incabloc shock protection, and it's an I series, so it's not just the older Panerai movements that have it.

As ewing stated, flared balance wheels (6497-2) are correct for gen Panerai movements. However, you can't buy 6497-2 movements as eubaches (loose movements) as a rule, so our Swiss reps use 6497-1 movements with the straight spokes and slower beat-rate. The Asian 6497 clones use the flared balance wheel and have the higher beat-rate that is more accurate to gen 6497-2s (which is why I prefer it for any non-base PAM, if you're really paying attention you can notice the higher beat-rate in the seconds hand sweep).

Also, obviously in gen movements you can get Incabloc shock protection on Swiss movements. However, the rule of thumb for the rep movements that we see is that Incabloc shows up on the Asian movements and the cheaper Novodiac shock protection is what shows up on the Swiss slower beat movements. I can't guarantee that is the case 100% of the time, but I have yet to see a Swiss movement with the Incabloc shock protection and the swan neck, nor have I seen any Asian movements with the Novodiac system with the swan neck.

I *do* believe I've seen some apparently Swiss (straight spokes) non-swan-neck movements that had the Incabloc system, though...

As for the "sheep" comment, this is a quote directly from vaccum's comparo thread: "My vote goes to the New asian swanneck movement......you decide wich one you want. :lol: ". The high opinions of the new Asian movements are out there, you just have to pay attention to them.

I've got two Asian powered watches now, my DSN 47mm Cali homage and an Angus Ultimate 111E/001B. They are both quite new, so I'm reserving judgement based on personal experience, but they are both performing flawlessly at the moment and are a match in feel and function to any of the Swiss powered watches I have.

 

[pete2528ca]

swiss or asian my friends, both movements seem to work lately, especially the newer asians.

noviodoc or incabloc, you say potatoe i say potato. in a closed back watch it is all the same, and really, how many panaristi really know the difference?? most of them are over inflated ego-maniacs anyway. =)

 

[brtelec]

The real question is, how many times do you take off your watch and show it to some one when it is not running?

 

[hooligan]

The movement doesn't need to be stopped to see the difference in the anti-shock systems.

You make a valid point, though. A flaw is only a flaw if it bothers YOU. We get pretty far into the weeds on some of this stuff, but it's fun to talk about. :twisted:

 

[brtelec]

I understand the difference in the anti-shock system, but the actual topic was the balance wheel. One of the things I find most interesting is when the tread seems to develop a life of it's own and the conversation becomes nit picking. Thats the best part. I just find that, as it has been said here numerous times, the only people that know the difference in the anti shock systems are watchsmiths, the occasional hardcore gen owner, and us. The details of this hobby are what make it interesting to me. But for all practical daily means and purposes, it would be damn hard to find some one that could tell us anything about our watches outside of these forums. Hell, in my job I see gen watches all day long. I am constantly telling these guys thing about their watches that they don't have a clue about.

 

[hooligan]

Yes, it's old news that by and large, gen owners of luxury watches are not WIS'. But only by going into the level of detail that this thread has can we hope to educate more people about the details and truths of this hobby. They can then decide for themselves if they want to go with Asian or Swiss, sapphire or mineral, etc.

This thread started with, I believe, a misunderstanding by D4M about the past discussions of flared spoke balance wheels in our 6497 powered reps and what it was a sign of. I then just broadened my explanation to include the other "tells" of the Asian 6497 vs. Swiss 6497.

I agree, the details and the nit picking are the fun part and they are a large part of what keeps this interesting for me, personally.

 

[Klink]

and lack of knowledge about those same details make for Panerai

a load of Paneristi with more benjamins than knowledge..



Ya gotta love it!

Life is Good!

K

 

[daytona4me]

This thread started with, I believe, a misunderstanding by D4M about the past discussions of flared spoke balance wheels in our 6497 powered reps and what it was a sign of.

Yes, this is true, to a point.. that point is that the majority of the people out there yell.. "flared balance wheel.. this means it's asian" and I have always felt that this is total bullshit. I also feel it is bullshit for someone to assign a "swiss" or "asian" title basede on Novodiac or Incabloc.

It is fair to say.. I have seen __these__ on __these__.. and so on..

I think too many people are inaccurately labeling movements based on a balance wheel,

I wanted to show this picture so people can see how inaccurate it is to say that a straight spoke on the balance wheel is the only one you will find on a swiss. Those pics of the gen movements are proof of the point

and klink sure doese know how to say it! lol

 

[horologie_unitas]

i just found another cheap asian movement with flared balance wheel....chinese made !

 

[daytona4me]

roflmao... cheep ass dimple in that needle too! (I didnt know the Chinese had dimples) lol :roll: :lol:

 

[Klink]

is only a year or a bit more ago

that resident expert (resident in rep community, not here) watchy 'makers' modd gurus

said that asia could never, would never, could not even begin to replicate any swiss stuffs..

lol

youse guys so far in guts that youse need to avoid being smoked!

: )

Life is Good!

(and sum of tyme, lacky of knowing is blesseded)

 

[babola]

Ahh...good old Asian vs Swiss discussion...brings back the memories...and tears in my eyes :lol:

 

[hooligan]

Yes, this is true, to a point.. that point is that the majority of the people out there yell.. "flared balance wheel.. this means it's asian" and I have always felt that this is total bullshit. I also feel it is bullshit for someone to assign a "swiss" or "asian" title basede on Novodiac or Incabloc.

It is fair to say.. I have seen __these__ on __these__.. and so on..

I think too many people are inaccurately labeling movements based on a balance wheel,

I wanted to show this picture so people can see how inaccurate it is to say that a straight spoke on the balance wheel is the only one you will find on a swiss. Those pics of the gen movements are proof of the point

and klink sure doese know how to say it! lol

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, D4M. True, there are gen Swiss movements with Incabloc shock protection and flared balance wheels. Those are Swiss 6497-2 movements, I have never seen a Swiss 6497-2 rep watch. Even most 6497 powered gen watches use the 6497-1! :wink:

When we are talking about movements in rep watches, specifically, I feel 100% comfortable saying that if it is a movement with flared spokes on the balance wheel and an Incabloc shock system, it's Asian (because it's a copy of the 6497-2 not the 6497-1).


@h_u -- if that's a rep movement in your pic, I'll buy a dozen of 'em... 8) I've got one like it at the moment, but I can't afford another just yet. :wink:

 

[daytona4me]

and flared balance wheels.

You need to have more flare in life Hooligan! :lol:


ok,, blah blah blah... 6497-1 , 6497-2 it's only a number away.. geeez

so,, is the flared balance wheel on an asian a swiss balance wheel? Is it an asian balance wheel, what are the chances that the straight balance wheel on the "swiss" is asian?

Do you know... The meaning of life?

 

[hooligan]

I have the required 17 pieces of "flare", mister. :lol: :lol: :wink:

Your posting style is getting more and more like Klinky, D. Time to worry... 8) :mrgreen:

 

[daytona4me]

I have the required 17 pieces of "flare", mister. :lol: :lol: :wink:

Your posting style is getting more and more like Klinky, D. Time to worry... 8) :mrgreen:

Well, it is the new year... last night was.... interesting... woke up and found two midgets in my bed. :shock: