Check this out.............

[takashi]

This is pretty interesting issue. Well... if we are comparing value for money at the instant of purchase, I would say getting a genuine PAM (typically the one without fancy movement) would not win buying a rep PAM with the quality almost matching the genuine. The extra money that one has put in is as everyone else pointed out, is for buying the history and brands. However, to some, spending such amount of money is PEANUT! It means something perhaps like 1 minute of work to get that kind of money to get the real deal. So... put yourself in that situation. Which one will you choose: a rep PAM or a gen PAM?
This is of course can't be applied to majority. Some do not set aside so much money to buy luxury branded watches. At the same time, they don't mind getting something that's much less in value albeit not as good as the genuine but good enough.
So real or rep? Depends on yourself.

 

[bigbadbrad]

what a load of cobblers - and let's stick to the "firew

We shall stop bashing the gen owner who has little knowledge about rep too... It's like we are living in our own world and so are they. Leave them and they will leave us. Good or not, your choice.

My sentiments exactly.

And all this B/S about "self-respect" - from wearing a gen watch?! Hey, I own 2 'gen' fast Deutche driving machines, for e.g. - is that how I obtain my self-respect? WRONG - how shallow that would be! Self respect can/should derive from helping others, striving to do your best at what you do, being a good father/spouse/sibling etc. ... not what you buy.

I dunno about you guys: but when I put on a good rep I think, "hey, that's a nice watch" ... and I feel just FINE.

Also, these guys don't know anything about value investing! (ya can't get back 100% on most gens, nor are reps "worthless".)

In the end I tend to avoid these boards, the despising of rep buyers is just bad karma. Like pamf - I own or have owned gens, and I own some reps. I don't distinguish them that much.

And a great vintage rep piece like enzo's 6152 : gives me more pleasure than any gen. It's unique

Cheers,

 

[takashi]

Triple b hits the point too! Well I guess we just carry on with our own life ^^

 

[007]

What a bunch of morons on that other board. Trying to convince each other, that they are doing the right thing.
If you did read their posts you will know who is laughing on their way to the bank: owners at Panerai that they can sell a $500 watch for $4000 and more and charge outrages service fees on top of that.

 

[Perspex Tropic]

Surfing for info on Watchmaster I ended up on A German Paneristi Site, Wow I was shocked how childish 'Grown ups' (I would think collectors of 4000 Euro wacthes to be 2 to 3 Decades at least?) Can mis-behave.
They where tearing Watchmaster apart like A flock of Piranhas on A drowning lamb!

On A Dutch site There was A argument over the Japanese RXW tribute to the Vintage 6152-1 on offer, simullar behavior It was A Fake no mather what, It was Ugly with its numerals that where to big :roll: (Vintage Panerai Afficionados know that the modern Panerais numerals are to Small!)

On A Italian Paneristi site wich looked interesting and really enthoushast, untill I saw A photo report on "P-day" (What Pervert came up with that name?) In Bavaria, Where two of the important forum members are photographed proudly giving the Nazi salute in the Bavarian beer hall party for all Paneristi to see.......Comments on their P-day photo report? "Grazie mille" "Thank you for the great report!" etc, etc. no single argument against them!

(Just to make things clear they where not presenting their watches for the photograph, Those where on their Lefthands:wink


If I was inteligent Allien looking for other inteligent life in the Universe, And came across 'Animal' behavior like this I would be continueing my search.
Sadly I was born here and have not find A space ship to leave this retated Planet [smilie=glasses7.gif]

 

[Joshua]

I especially love the part about rep buyers buying watches to make a (false) statement about themselves and that the gen buyers buy 'em becuase they "admire the history", etc.

Bullshit. I'm sorry, you buy a $4K watch for a reason, to make a statement. Why not buy a Tissot then? They've been around since the late 1800s, Swiss Made, Swiss heritage, etc. Because they don't cost as much that's why. :wink:

90% of luxury watch buyers do so in order to make a statement. It's the male equivalent of a 1+ carat diamond ring. Like it or not, that's the truth for the vast majority of people buying watches in this price range.

Sorry for the rant.

Is it okay if I have a 1ct diamond in my wedding ring? Oh, and I'm a guy.

 

[hooligan]

Of course, it's OK. It's OK if you own a gen PAM, too.

I was trying to make two points: 1.) At that pricepoint these watches become jewelry as well as timepieces. 2.) They buy these watches because they want people to notice they are wearing an expensive wristwatch and all the assumptions of wealth/status/success that go along with that.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. However, just be honest about the "why" you are spending that much money on a watch.

I'm not judging, I don't own any luxury gens, yet. But I will in the near future, and I'll admit a big part of it is the sense of accomplishment that I'll feel about being able to afford to spend that much on a watch. I'm perfectly OK with that.

If that makes me materialistic, or small, then so be it. I've been called worse. :wink:

 

[Perspex Tropic]

If People really enjoy their Watch wether Fake or Haute Horlogie Brand, Cheap or A investment,
And if they will respect Other collectors Freedom of their own taste,
Then, There is still hope for A better world!

 

[ragerover]

Perspex, The behavior you observed on those different forums can also be found on other brand forums...as well as other topics, such as motor vehicles.

I used to visit a few Land Rover forums. Do you know how much bashing goes on in there? I love my old, beat up Rover (my girlfriend HATES it). Its not worth much, but it makes me happy and I think its cool

Land Rover owners all bash eachother saying how the new ones are not true to the brand. The Land Rover owners bash the Range Rover & Discovery owners becasue their vehicles are too comfortable and have a stereo.

Land Rover owners bad mouth Jeep drivers. Jeep drivers bash Land Rover drivers. BMW & Audi drives bash each other. Then you have all the Seat, Skoda and VW drivers all bashing eachother and all calling eachother stupid for the vehicle they own.

Get my point? Im just agreeing with all of you. Pleanty of animials out there. Everyone is CRAZY!

I do what makes me happy. Atleast I try to. But its also normal to want to impress other people. Its part of being human.

I am embarassed to wear an expensive watch (not that I can afford one). Im a student, I would feel uncomfortable showing up to class wearing an expensive watch.

The funny thing is, out off all my watches, gen or rep, the watch that has gotten the most compliments/comments...the watch that gets the most wrist time...the watch that I seem to get the most pleasure from and which I guess was the best value (what ever that means in the watch world) is my Seiko "Black Monster."

My $150 Seiko constantly gets comments. And I love saying..."its a Seiko, you know how much it cost? $150!"
My $100 Swatch gets lots of looks and comments too. Its the ETA sutomatic skeletonized/dialess one.

Funny thing is, my "expensive" watches, like Sinn, no one has ever said anything to me. Not that I want people to comment. One reason I bought it was becasue of the simplicity and lack of "falshyness."

 

[hooligan]

Sinn and Damasko are two of the most UN-recognized mid-tier watches out there. Having said that, I LOVE them both. Tool watches in their purist form. Kinda what a Sub or SD used to be.

I'm with you on the Seiko Monsters, too. My OM gets comments all the time and I LOVE it. I've seen bracelets/clasps on $500 watches that aren't as nice...

 

[ragerover]

Ever compair a Seiko monster to a Sub or SD?

3 years ago or so, when I got my Monster, I compaired to my friend's Sub. He compaired it actually...he was amazed how heavy and solid it was. When you look at a Rolex bracelet compaired to a sub, its sort of pathetic how a $5000 watch has such a poorly finished part.

 

[pugwash]

3 years ago or so, when I got my Monster, I compaired to my friend's Sub. He compaired it actually...he was amazed how heavy and solid it was. When you look at a Rolex bracelet compaired to a sub, its sort of pathetic how a $5000 watch has such a poorly finished part.

As I have a rep Sub and a real Monster, I'd say the Sub bracelet is more comfortable, but not by that much. Seiko get their steel bracelets flimsy enough to be wearable, like Rolex. Omega could learn a thing or two from Seiko.

 

[nfs060]

Those paneraitist whatever think they know it all. Itsjust brings a huge smile to my face reading it.
I would love to see what they think of my Davidson.
Keep our reps on the low down.
Also they say our watches are worth nothing. I would love to show them how much I resell my used watches to my friends. Used watch gets back 100 % return. Un heard of with the gens.

 

[takashi]

So... are you the posters over there? Please don't post anything related to rep stuff over the other side.

 

[Klink]

yes, best to stay away from wacko site..

wacko wacko wacko!!!!!

 

[hooligan]

So... are you the posters over there? Please don't post anything related to rep stuff over the other side.

+ 1,000,000

Nothing to be gained from "stirring the pot" other than unwanted grief and attention.

I lurk over there a little, but don't ever post anything.

 

[efnstefn]

"Buying fakes is as much about self respect as it is about "where it's assembled"".........

Hmmmm, I pretty much don't have any respect for myself, yet I own both reps and gens. What does this mean? This guy proposes quite the mindf*ck.

 

[Klink]

must be connected to small parts.. envy of big parts..
something is very sicko over there..
imo

Life is Good!
Klink

 

[ragerover]

This thread is getting too long as it LOL

I don't get this whole resell thing? When I buy something, I buy it with the intention of keeping it. I actually have never sold a watch I have bought. Yes, there are watches I have not worn in a while, but I will eventually come back to them. When I buy a car, I buy it with the intention of running it in to the ground.

I don't understanding how or why resale value should really matter. Its not the first time I have heard people argue this. Resell value of brands has been talked about on places like Timezone long before Panerai was re-introduced into the market.

This brings up a great business idea...watch leasing! LOL Anyone want to lease a Panerai? How about $225 down and $60 a month for 36 months? Anyone?

Im not an investment banker, although I think I am pretty savvy when it comes to investing. I think 2 mistakes people make is 1)investing in automobiles 2)watches. I remeber the crazy "exotic car" market of the early '90s. Ferrari F40s, Jaguar 220s...how much are they worth now? Yes, a classic Bugatti will go up in value, but once again, if you can afford a $500,000 car, then who cares what the resale of a $4000 watch is. people have gotten lucky, such as Ferrari Enzo owners...but once again, if you are able to spend $750,000+ on a car, I think you have greater concerns than resale value.

there are better investments than cars and watches. Some models will go up, but if you want to "invest" there are better places to put your money. And if you have so much money that you have it spread around in every investment opertunity, than te resale value of a $4000 watch shouldn't be a concern of yours.

I don't get it. Maybe I'm the idiot? I buy what I like. I buy what makes me happy and I use it.
just my $0.02

 

[bigbadbrad]

-

Yeah, it's getting too long but your post above was deserving of response. Also, I am admittedly getting off-topic - but in the context of the 'other' board's comment about re-sale there is a nexus - so please bear w/ me :wink:

You are bang-on: the notion of 'Investing & collectibles" is an oxymoron. Why, because it's too difficult, even for experts, to pick what will work - a bit like penny shares. Even the dealer who promoted Van Gogh's (which, in Dutch, sounds more like 'cough' w/ a gutteral finish, not like 'Go') work, the irascible Ambroise Vollard, later complained that (1) he didn't buy enough and (2) he underpriced his sales.

People who are filthy rich buy the 'cheap' Ferraris at $200-$300k, F430 etc., just so they can stay at the top of the "F-list" (see this weekend's WSJ). This bidding allows them the option to buy the rare car like an Enzo - that IS likely to be collectible.

But you also have to net out MASSIVE running costs (think Panerai gen service multiplied many times over) and also the cost of the other Ferraris that gave you the OPTION to buy the Enzo. Methinks that's a huge drag on the actual return.

Art, furniture, watches - the 'investment' returns are all widly erratic. Which is why closed-end art funds exist: to diversify the risk of the 'one shot' artwork - but even then, the returns can be flat for years. So, in general stick to normal asset classes (stocks, bonds, real estate - things that PAY you to be patient). Oh, and even gold, that can also go for more than a 2 decades - 1982 - 2002 - and do nothing (nominally, not even talking inflation-adjusted). And currencies: that's one of the riskiest games in town, even the pros have a hard time making steady trade returns (which is why I don't hedge more than 50%).

And yes, it should be about what 'cranks your engine' - not whether you'll get a ROI. And, there's no free cash flow being generated by collectibles. Some 45% of the S&P's long-run returns has come from *dividends*.