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Can reps be even better than gens?
- Thread starter ddc
- Start date
Yes, original only means not improved.
The obvious improvements performed all the time here are AR treatment and lume.
With these a super rep can be better than the Gen.
A copy can very well indeed be better than the original, the world of concours automotive restoration/building comes to mind. When restoring/building a car that will "attend" these types of events the craftsman needs to incorporate the flaws (i.e. paint overspray) that would likely be found in an original when it left the factory.
shandroid
Respected Member
- 13/9/10
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To properly answer this question, 'better' needs to be defined... Certainly, aesthetically they can be improved, but aesthetic improvements are subjective.
I've always thought they're better in terms of value for money. I treat all of my reps like they're gens and I think that adds to the ownership experience - almost like it's setting your mind up to admire, protect and appreciate the watch, regardless of it's dollar value, whereas some people (friends I've got watches for) pay a couple hundred dollars for 99% of the real thing in terms of accuracy and feel, but they only expect a couple of hundred dollars worth of value out of it, and therefore don't treat it like a precious new addition. I put that down to (in their cases anyway) the fact that some of them don't have a reference to the genuine article like we do, so sort of treat it like any other 'fake' watch that you'd find at a market - maybe a cut above, if you're lucky... I guess people do this so as to avoid disappointment 'when' it crumbles to pieces... That way, they can say, 'well, I expected that to happen!'
Also, I'm often surprised at how rep guys seem to think gens are without issue... They're not - they break, they run slow, quick set date features play up, crowns strip, they ding and mark up just like our reps - and, the only Omega customer experience I've had here in Australia was at watches of Switzerland in Brisbane when they basically told a mate that they would not warranty his Speedmaster. It had been returned with issues twice prior, the first time try told him it was fixed, the second time (returned with the same symptoms) they told him it was as a result of moisture, and the third time - with the same problems - they said no more work would be done on the watch and that the problems were as a result of impact damage... Not that any damage could be found on the case, but being just out I warranty, it seemed like a good opportunity for them to brush him off. That saga is now entering it's third month, and I don't believe he's getting anywhere fast.
I started with reps after some gens, then went back to gens, now I'm back here again. I'll maybe have some gens in the box at all times, or maybe I won't, but reps are where it's at for me - so, for me and my eclectic taste, reps allow me to cater for my desire for variety, and therefore they are BETTER.... For me....
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I've always thought they're better in terms of value for money. I treat all of my reps like they're gens and I think that adds to the ownership experience - almost like it's setting your mind up to admire, protect and appreciate the watch, regardless of it's dollar value, whereas some people (friends I've got watches for) pay a couple hundred dollars for 99% of the real thing in terms of accuracy and feel, but they only expect a couple of hundred dollars worth of value out of it, and therefore don't treat it like a precious new addition. I put that down to (in their cases anyway) the fact that some of them don't have a reference to the genuine article like we do, so sort of treat it like any other 'fake' watch that you'd find at a market - maybe a cut above, if you're lucky... I guess people do this so as to avoid disappointment 'when' it crumbles to pieces... That way, they can say, 'well, I expected that to happen!'
Also, I'm often surprised at how rep guys seem to think gens are without issue... They're not - they break, they run slow, quick set date features play up, crowns strip, they ding and mark up just like our reps - and, the only Omega customer experience I've had here in Australia was at watches of Switzerland in Brisbane when they basically told a mate that they would not warranty his Speedmaster. It had been returned with issues twice prior, the first time try told him it was fixed, the second time (returned with the same symptoms) they told him it was as a result of moisture, and the third time - with the same problems - they said no more work would be done on the watch and that the problems were as a result of impact damage... Not that any damage could be found on the case, but being just out I warranty, it seemed like a good opportunity for them to brush him off. That saga is now entering it's third month, and I don't believe he's getting anywhere fast.
I started with reps after some gens, then went back to gens, now I'm back here again. I'll maybe have some gens in the box at all times, or maybe I won't, but reps are where it's at for me - so, for me and my eclectic taste, reps allow me to cater for my desire for variety, and therefore they are BETTER.... For me....
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Sure they can. It just depends on your definition of "original".
Mass-produced watches, no matter who makes them (even manufacturers like Rolex, Omega, and Panerai), are designed to be as close to "spec" as they can be. Production processes and materials are all incorporated so as to make the process of manufacturing a watch both repeatable, and as close to someone's blueprint as possible.
But mistakes happen. Bad production runs occur. People have bad days. Happens all the time.
Now if a rep watchmaker produces a watch, and someone lovingly mods the bejeezus out of it, bringing it closer and closer to matching "spec" as they can, well, the copy can FAR outshine a crappy "original".... if you're defining "original" as the "spec" version of a watch.
On the other hand, if you take a gen Submariner that came out of the factory first thing on a Monday, and has 87 flaws on it/in it, and use that as your "original", and copy THAT, well, then....yes. You'll never beat the "specs" by doing that.
Seems like we're splitting hairs, but I do indeed believe that a copy can be better than the original....it just depends on what you're copying.
We are indeed splitting hairs, but that's ok, cuz that's what the forum is about isn't it?
Well i guess that i'm the minority here but i'd say that the copy would be inferior to the original unless it is a "revised" version of the same original item.
Would you rather have someone gift you a heavy franken or an original item?
A kit Lambo or a factory fresh Murcielago? the very Mona Lisa or an excellent print?.
It could all be just a matter of semantics.
It is semantics. But it's fun.What I'd prefer is a Lambo that best conforms to the artist's ideal. Whether it be a new Murcielago, or a 1988 Countach.....well, let's just say I'm old school.
In a similar manner, it would depend upon the franken being offered vs the gen watch. Too many variables have influence upon whether I perceive "value" in an item - for me, the concept of "bang for the buck" plays an ever-increasingly significant role (I have a child that is preparing to go to college - money is ALWAYS going to be a concern for the next few years).
I find it interesting that you mention the Mona Lisa in the same conversation as a Lamborghini and a luxury watch. To answer your question, I would say that I would of course prefer the original Mona Lisa...and also that my preference would be like comparing apples to zucchini.
The Mona Lisa is a hand-crafted, unique expression of art. There's only one in the world. By definition, a reproduction has less worth.
A watch and a Lamborghini are both very nice, but they are both mass-produced items. They are designed to conform to a standard. The Mona Lisa IS a standard.
Will
By definition, a replica is judged by its accuracy to the platonic ideal specified by the genuine item. Individual specimens of the genuine watch might suffer from lapses in manufacturing tolerances, like misaligned bezels, crystals, and indices, just to name a few possibilities, but in principle, there is a ideal design specification that the replica (and the gen) is measured against.
In a brand with poor manufacturing tolerances or QC, I could certainly imagine that a franken watch with cherry picked parts and meticulously hand assembled might possibly adhere closer to this ideal design specification, than even a genuine article, but the resulting watch is likely to cost a significant fraction of the genuine article. Some of the Concepta IWC builds come to mind...
In a brand with poor manufacturing tolerances or QC, I could certainly imagine that a franken watch with cherry picked parts and meticulously hand assembled might possibly adhere closer to this ideal design specification, than even a genuine article, but the resulting watch is likely to cost a significant fraction of the genuine article. Some of the Concepta IWC builds come to mind...
This is soooo much fun! I ended up buying the Oris and using my newly acquired franken skills .... Fixed the strap.
I think there really is nothing like a gen but the super reps are 95% the same so in my mind I can only justify paying 4 to 5 times the rep price for the gen. Any more and the percentages don't work for me and I feel like a sucker. I've got reps and gens in my watchbox and to tell you truth there is not much in it and no one can tell which is which.
The out of box super reps include the Concord C1, Pam 111, Chopard MM GTXL non chrono, Cartier Santos 7753 and Roadster S, IWC FA Jones, Zenith Defy Xtreme, Corum AC and a little less super the Patek Nautilus and Hublot Ice V1.
The out of box super reps include the Concord C1, Pam 111, Chopard MM GTXL non chrono, Cartier Santos 7753 and Roadster S, IWC FA Jones, Zenith Defy Xtreme, Corum AC and a little less super the Patek Nautilus and Hublot Ice V1.
Thanks, I'll look over the watches in your list. I have the Patek Nautilus, which is nice. I also ordered a Pam 111m, but it was a H-factory, and after two tries, the watch never worked for even a minute on my wrist, so I ended up getting a refund. Might give that another try.
No problem. I think the Chopard and two Cartiers are probably the most accurate of them. I'm going to take the plunge and get the Zenith Defy in RG next, it looks amazing.
Personally I think that a rep can be better than a gen. The point made above about workers not giving a shit is true. They can **** up and it's not big deal. But builders like bk put tons of hard work into creating perfect watches and if he ***** up his reputation is hurt. If he had a bunch of people making them for him one of them might not really care about the quality.
I agree that very highly modded reps can be better than a gen.
The caveat is that it would have to be a fairly low end gen (ex. Tag Hauer) that may use quartz, or a standard undecorated ETA movement, no HE valve, no chronos, & a very simple printed dial.
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The caveat is that it would have to be a fairly low end gen (ex. Tag Hauer) that may use quartz, or a standard undecorated ETA movement, no HE valve, no chronos, & a very simple printed dial.
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Very true.
The main difference is in the quality of the materials used, the quality of the equipment the guys work on, and the amount and quality of supervision.
Result is that the quality level is usually more homogeneous in gens. You (almost) never see complete crap where the movement dies out in two days. On the other hand, the variance is large in reps. Some die in a few day, exhibit large flaws, big problems, but some (luck of the draw) are truly amazing at plenty levels...
Most of my reps have (small and hardly noticeable) aesthetic flaws but some are quite amazing on that count. Some have horological "quirks" but some (I thing of my sub-c in A-2836 or my 5th gen PO in 4813) are well within COSC specs (once I re-regulated them). Same for water-tightness. After re-checking some are tight as oysters... others, well, let's say that rain might not be their best friend
Keep in mind, however that some of the "micro brands" gens do offer amazing fit, finish and quality for the money... My Steinhart Ocean Vintage GMT is one of my best finished watches and keeps an astounding +0.1 to +0.2 s per day... Water resistant to 300m, very very nice sapphire... for a fraction of my "big name gens" prices (around $500)
+1
So true. Most watches can be regulated to COSC specs.
I upgraded my SKX009 to NH36, it came out at -0.5 sec/day on the timegrapher. Same with all my reps, I don't have to adjust the time of any of my watches as I don't wear them long enough to see any difference in lost time. LOL. Replicas come now with good enough movements, just clean it and regulate it.
Buy ETA based and you can get parts or replacement anywhere.
shinynewbling25
aprilia
I handled a 38.5 mm blue aqua terra in the store. Compared to my 41.5 rep aqua terra and the transitions were more crisp, smoother finishing between the lugs and sharper creases in the rep. Also the "flaw" of deeper dial grooves turned out to be a positive for me as I like it better. I actually think my rep is more technically perfect than the gen with better endlink fittment. On that note that's the only rep I have like that. I keep it due to it's technical perfection but I don't actually like the watch that much. Anyway, every time I handle my microbrands for a while and get all impressed with their finishing I then go back into the rep drawer and am just awed how much more well finished and luxury feeling they are. For the price it's almost like they're in a different league. I supposed they pretty much better be since they're repping multi thousand dollar pieces.
- 22/1/19
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This Noob Daytona is better than my gen. I put the Prof xtal on it and it just pops in a way the gen doesn’t. Sold the gen. Bought two more Daytona’s and other goodies.
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