A Noobs guide to Chinese Made Movements
I know some of this is covered in Movements, if the staff wants to move then so be it. Enjoy...
Chinese Automatic Movement Database by Robbie
February 11, 2013
RWI Archive-http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/mechanical-movements-race-39252
Chinese Automatic 21j's are mostly clones of the Miyota xxxx however, the ETA clones are not 21j's per say....Remember that noobs.
21j's- Known Chinese Makers of the 21 jewel, 21,600 Automatic
Hangzhou 21j- link below is about a ETA2824 clone
Shanghai B-28xx 21j
Nanning/Nanjing-28xx 21j
Dixmont-Guagzhou aka DG28 21j
Seagull ST16-28xx 21j
Tianjin Yingge-TY 2xxx
****Update 05/21/2013
The TY name was given by PTS Resources. HK trading company and their movements are ST, not TY.Seagull is Tianjin, Robbie
(courtesy edit info provided by Luthier RIP TNaC....I miss you
BH (?) We need help id'ing this Chinese 21j.
Nanning 21j
Seagull ST16
Hangzhou6300
Tianjin Yingge TY2130
This is the DG2813 in my HOWLVee by Rick914. A regmariner!!
Dixmont Guangzhou 2813 sold by Ofrei
DG2813 DG2816 hybrid
Chinese Chronographs- ST19's and a7750's
Liaoning-7750
Shanghai-CH3LZF2 a7750- The best a7750 Made, P E R I O D (my choice)
Sea Gull-STs manual winds
ETA Valjoux 7750 25jewel (mine). This is in my Tudor Chronotime 79280. This is the GEN Swiss Valjoux 7750
a7750 vended my Rochest-unknown factory
Other links with great information:
This guy is amazing right here WUS User: lysanderxiii
All you ever need to know about auto movements Chinese
http://forums.watchuseek.com/search.php?searchid=8206603.html (bad link trying to fix)
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/chinese-standard-movement-help-please-140392-2.html#post927390
http://www.prometheuswatch.com/how-etas-decision-to-stop-supplying-movements-aff
ects-prometheus-watch-company-and-watch-industry/
Seagulls-1901
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/another-inside-look-seagull-1901-a-225110.html
(Need's recovering as of 03/04/2016)
Clones vs. ETA comparo to the 2824-2, 28xx
Tianjin Yingge
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/ho...ompare-eta-depth-look-216945-post1547711.html
Chinese a7750- MUST READ for noob and vet alike
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/chinese-7750-a-220837.html
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/7750-dissected-lots-pix-215335.html
Dixmont-Guangzhou the DG2813, DG4813 (no longer availible)
Guangzhou
1963-auto SG-4, date version SG-5 similar to Seagull ST6)
Dixmont-started in 1990s
Today, DG28/38 is the flagship Miyota 8500 clone
DG48 is an ETA 2824 clone
DG69 revised clone of the 2892
wiki-link here in the DG company
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Dixmont_Guangzhou_Wat
ch_Company
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/identify-chinese-movement-435764.html
So what is the base movement for the Shanghai B?
Shanghai B- The Development of
"In 1982, the Shanghai Number 4 Watch Factory entered into a joint venture with
the Shanghai Watch Factory to develop a new wristwatch movement to replace the
ZuanShi SM1A and Shanghai ZSH (STANDARD MOV'T). As it happened, the ZSH was
never replaced. The prototype series was designated SBS, and was characterized
by a very thin design of simple construction and large balance wheel. An
automatic version was also planned. Test batches of the SBS1B calendar hand-wind
and SBS3 very thin watch were released to market in 1984, alongside the
equivalent Shanghai SS8.
The full production ZuanShi SB1Z (date) and SB1ZB (day/date) versions were
release in 1985. These early versions may be destinguished by a prominent,
stylized B engraved on the movement. The day/date automatic SB1ZZ followed in
later years. Curiously, although thinness was an important characteristic of the
SBS design, the automatic module is reasonably bulky.
Although Shanghai ZuanShi is now just a memory, the B calibre developed jointly
with the Shanghai Watch Factory lives on in a proliferation of variants produced
by Shanghai and used in both their own watches and sold to other watch
companies. There are triple-calendars, dual-time, 24-hour, moon-phase. The most
commonly seen in recent times is the GMT version, found in watches under the
brands of Alpha, Aeromatic, Tauchmeister and many others."
From User: lysanderxiii thread on WUS
*This is a MUST READ if you are wonder why a7750's FAIL sans the Shanghai3LFx2
WHY LACK OF QUALITY?????
The 3 questions I have,
1) How standardized is the Chinese parts? eg If you had
10 of the seagulls, could you swap parts with each of them without problems or
huge variations?
2) Are they actually made from proper steel, or are they made from ceramics like
Miyotas?
the reason I'm wondering, a friend told me In china, they test the movements.
The ones that fail or are lousy are sold in the replica market. The better ones
they use for themselves or the export market.
The counterfeit (replica) market has poor reliability, due to the simple fact that
they have extremely poor quality assurance (again "cost of quality" discussion).
READ THIS PLEASE.. These people are looking to turn high profits, therefore have dirty (ie not a
clean-room type workshop, not that three week old food in in the corner of the
workshop) assembly areas, don't take care to keep fingers and dust out of the
case and other things that result in high infant mortality.
Movement manufacturers don't really care what your putting their movement in, I
have seen real ETAs in Omega counterfeits (replicas)
3) The Rado was from the 1980s as far as I know. Not any better, and certainly
no worse than current offering from ETA.
a7750 Issues-Seconds @ 6 defined
I just wondered because this isn't the first instance of un-lubricated Sea Gull
movements I've read about. A recent investigation into a Chinese chrono with the
additional sub dial at the 6 o'clock position found the movement to be devoid of
oil except for the balance. In that instance it was apparently done on purpose
to reduce friction on the additional parts and allow the watch to keep running.
When one almost triples the number of gears in any mechanical device, one of two
things is going to have to happen, 1) the power input will have to be increased,
or 2) the drag due too friction will have to be reduced. The "El Primero" 7750
(not to be confuse with the standard 7753 style layout[1]) simply runs the base
except movement at very nearly it maximum capacity.
1. There are two different horizontal tri-compax automatic chronographs based on
the 7750 available from China. One has the El Premero lay out with the running
seconds at 6, and the minute and hour counters at 9 and 3 respectively. The
other has the same layout as the base 7750, except the minute counter is moved
to the 3 position; and unlike the ETA/Valjoux 7753, which shares the dial
layout, the Chinese version manages to keep the quick set date function, big
plus. This movement is the one to get if you need a horizontal tri-compax
automatic chronograph. I have only heard of the "el premero" 7750 being used in
counterfeits (replica)
Oil-To Much to little
On another subject broached here, oiling, or lack of, I have been thinking. A
well made movement, sent out from the factory bone dry will probably last 10 to
15 years of constant use before wear will disable it. But, not oiling reduces
the likelihood of over-oiling problems which would usually lead to returns.
So, by purposely neglecting to oil the movements is a wise business choice, as
these movements are not intended to be heirlooms and passed from generation to
generation, but neat little fashion accessories (that tell time) and are
replaced when the owner becomes bored with it, or something else catches their
eye.
So, IMO this is all very simple to understand for a noob to sort out all the lingo we use in this hobby and understand that there are many different manufacturers making the parts that the Chinese are using to make the product we buy.
*All of this information was copy and pasted from various watch forums.
an ébauche (also known as 'movement blank') is a collection of unassembled parts used as the basis for assembling a watch movement. Even with ETA when the supplied ébauches to Omega, Breitling, Tisso, Oris, Tudor etc, They companies often decorated the base plates, bridges and rotor to emulate an “in house” movement, but the engine was all ETA. Same applies for Chinese made movements, some uber plain some very aesthetic,
Swiss Made Movement Manufacturers
To continue with our Swiss Made Watch Collection there are alternatives in
market that start to appear, mainly
Sellita – a Swiss company with its SW200, SW220 movements clones of the
ETA
2824-2 and ETA 2836-2 (however Sellita production line is fully overbooked,
though some movements are available via movement brokers but at random times and
scarce quantities)*read that up to 1 year in backlog with Selitta due to ETA pulling out and Sellita stepping in as a 3rd party seller.
Soprod – a Swiss company with its A10 movement which is a movement built to
replace the ETA 2892-A2 with improved specs (delivery times of over 12 months
time and premium pricing)
Valanvron – a Swiss company that is a relatively newcomer to industry
(established in 2010) that has in its portfolio the VAL24, VAL36 and VAL92
movements that are clones of the ETA 2824-2, ETA 2836-2 and ETA 2892-A2
movements. They base their movements in ebauches from Seagull with many
components replaced in Switzerland for Swiss ones and complete assembly of
movement made in Switzerland.
Asia clones there are also alternatives available mainly:
Hangzhou – a Chinese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical
movements to third parties. Their most looked for movements are the ETA 2824-2,
ETA 2836-2, Unitas 6497 and 6498 clone movements.
Miyota – a Japanese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical
movements to its group and third parties. Their most looked for movements are
the Miyota 8215, 8205, 9015 movements (though it is hard to have access to their
9015 movement though some movements are available via movement brokers but at
random times and scarce quantities)
Seagull – a Chinese fully integrated watch manufacturer that produces complete
watches and sells to third parties multitude of mechanical movements being the
most looked for its ETA 2824-2 (ST16), ETA 2836-2 (ST?), ETA 2892 (ST?), Unitas 6497 and 6498 clone (PAM reps)
movements.
*Shanghai – a Chinese fully integrated watch manufacturer that produces complete
watches and sells to third parties multitude of mechanical movements being the
most looked for its ETA 7750 clone movement
Time Module Seiko – a Japanese company dedicated exclusively to produce
mechanical movements to its group and third parties. Their most looked for
movements are the Seiko Time Module NE15 (Seiko 6R15), Seiko Time Module NH35
(Seiko 4R35) and Seiko Time Module NH36 (Seiko 4R36) movement (though it is hard
to have access to their movements with lead times of around 12 months though at
I hope this is as informative to you as it was to me...
Go in peace my sons....and screw up no more :bless:
I know some of this is covered in Movements, if the staff wants to move then so be it. Enjoy...
Chinese Automatic Movement Database by Robbie
February 11, 2013
RWI Archive-http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/mechanical-movements-race-39252
Chinese Automatic 21j's are mostly clones of the Miyota xxxx however, the ETA clones are not 21j's per say....Remember that noobs.
21j's- Known Chinese Makers of the 21 jewel, 21,600 Automatic
Hangzhou 21j- link below is about a ETA2824 clone
Shanghai B-28xx 21j
Nanning/Nanjing-28xx 21j
Dixmont-Guagzhou aka DG28 21j
Seagull ST16-28xx 21j
Tianjin Yingge-TY 2xxx
****Update 05/21/2013
The TY name was given by PTS Resources. HK trading company and their movements are ST, not TY.Seagull is Tianjin, Robbie
(courtesy edit info provided by Luthier RIP TNaC....I miss you
BH (?) We need help id'ing this Chinese 21j.
"It's interesting that it has a different jewel keeper than either the Nanning or DG. They both have the lyre shaped keeper.
Maybe it's a cheaper knock off of a DG, which is a cheap knock off of a Miyota" - KBH 03/04/2016
Maybe it's a cheaper knock off of a DG, which is a cheap knock off of a Miyota" - KBH 03/04/2016
Nanning 21j
Seagull ST16
Hangzhou6300
Tianjin Yingge TY2130
This is the DG2813 in my HOWLVee by Rick914. A regmariner!!
Dixmont Guangzhou 2813 sold by Ofrei
DG2813 DG2816 hybrid
Chinese Chronographs- ST19's and a7750's
Liaoning-7750
Shanghai-CH3LZF2 a7750- The best a7750 Made, P E R I O D (my choice)
Sea Gull-STs manual winds
ETA Valjoux 7750 25jewel (mine). This is in my Tudor Chronotime 79280. This is the GEN Swiss Valjoux 7750
a7750 vended my Rochest-unknown factory
Other links with great information:
This guy is amazing right here WUS User: lysanderxiii
All you ever need to know about auto movements Chinese
http://forums.watchuseek.com/search.php?searchid=8206603.html (bad link trying to fix)
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/chinese-standard-movement-help-please-140392-2.html#post927390
http://www.prometheuswatch.com/how-etas-decision-to-stop-supplying-movements-aff
ects-prometheus-watch-company-and-watch-industry/
Seagulls-1901
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/another-inside-look-seagull-1901-a-225110.html
(Need's recovering as of 03/04/2016)
Clones vs. ETA comparo to the 2824-2, 28xx
Tianjin Yingge
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/ho...ompare-eta-depth-look-216945-post1547711.html
Chinese a7750- MUST READ for noob and vet alike
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/chinese-7750-a-220837.html
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/7750-dissected-lots-pix-215335.html
Dixmont-Guangzhou the DG2813, DG4813 (no longer availible)
Guangzhou
1963-auto SG-4, date version SG-5 similar to Seagull ST6)
Dixmont-started in 1990s
Today, DG28/38 is the flagship Miyota 8500 clone
DG48 is an ETA 2824 clone
DG69 revised clone of the 2892
wiki-link here in the DG company
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Dixmont_Guangzhou_Wat
ch_Company
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/identify-chinese-movement-435764.html
So what is the base movement for the Shanghai B?
Shanghai B- The Development of
"In 1982, the Shanghai Number 4 Watch Factory entered into a joint venture with
the Shanghai Watch Factory to develop a new wristwatch movement to replace the
ZuanShi SM1A and Shanghai ZSH (STANDARD MOV'T). As it happened, the ZSH was
never replaced. The prototype series was designated SBS, and was characterized
by a very thin design of simple construction and large balance wheel. An
automatic version was also planned. Test batches of the SBS1B calendar hand-wind
and SBS3 very thin watch were released to market in 1984, alongside the
equivalent Shanghai SS8.
The full production ZuanShi SB1Z (date) and SB1ZB (day/date) versions were
release in 1985. These early versions may be destinguished by a prominent,
stylized B engraved on the movement. The day/date automatic SB1ZZ followed in
later years. Curiously, although thinness was an important characteristic of the
SBS design, the automatic module is reasonably bulky.
Although Shanghai ZuanShi is now just a memory, the B calibre developed jointly
with the Shanghai Watch Factory lives on in a proliferation of variants produced
by Shanghai and used in both their own watches and sold to other watch
companies. There are triple-calendars, dual-time, 24-hour, moon-phase. The most
commonly seen in recent times is the GMT version, found in watches under the
brands of Alpha, Aeromatic, Tauchmeister and many others."
From User: lysanderxiii thread on WUS
*This is a MUST READ if you are wonder why a7750's FAIL sans the Shanghai3LFx2
WHY LACK OF QUALITY?????
The 3 questions I have,
1) How standardized is the Chinese parts? eg If you had
10 of the seagulls, could you swap parts with each of them without problems or
huge variations?
2) Are they actually made from proper steel, or are they made from ceramics like
Miyotas?
the reason I'm wondering, a friend told me In china, they test the movements.
The ones that fail or are lousy are sold in the replica market. The better ones
they use for themselves or the export market.
The counterfeit (replica) market has poor reliability, due to the simple fact that
they have extremely poor quality assurance (again "cost of quality" discussion).
READ THIS PLEASE.. These people are looking to turn high profits, therefore have dirty (ie not a
clean-room type workshop, not that three week old food in in the corner of the
workshop) assembly areas, don't take care to keep fingers and dust out of the
case and other things that result in high infant mortality.
Movement manufacturers don't really care what your putting their movement in, I
have seen real ETAs in Omega counterfeits (replicas)
3) The Rado was from the 1980s as far as I know. Not any better, and certainly
no worse than current offering from ETA.
a7750 Issues-Seconds @ 6 defined
I just wondered because this isn't the first instance of un-lubricated Sea Gull
movements I've read about. A recent investigation into a Chinese chrono with the
additional sub dial at the 6 o'clock position found the movement to be devoid of
oil except for the balance. In that instance it was apparently done on purpose
to reduce friction on the additional parts and allow the watch to keep running.
When one almost triples the number of gears in any mechanical device, one of two
things is going to have to happen, 1) the power input will have to be increased,
or 2) the drag due too friction will have to be reduced. The "El Primero" 7750
(not to be confuse with the standard 7753 style layout[1]) simply runs the base
except movement at very nearly it maximum capacity.
1. There are two different horizontal tri-compax automatic chronographs based on
the 7750 available from China. One has the El Premero lay out with the running
seconds at 6, and the minute and hour counters at 9 and 3 respectively. The
other has the same layout as the base 7750, except the minute counter is moved
to the 3 position; and unlike the ETA/Valjoux 7753, which shares the dial
layout, the Chinese version manages to keep the quick set date function, big
plus. This movement is the one to get if you need a horizontal tri-compax
automatic chronograph. I have only heard of the "el premero" 7750 being used in
counterfeits (replica)
Oil-To Much to little
On another subject broached here, oiling, or lack of, I have been thinking. A
well made movement, sent out from the factory bone dry will probably last 10 to
15 years of constant use before wear will disable it. But, not oiling reduces
the likelihood of over-oiling problems which would usually lead to returns.
So, by purposely neglecting to oil the movements is a wise business choice, as
these movements are not intended to be heirlooms and passed from generation to
generation, but neat little fashion accessories (that tell time) and are
replaced when the owner becomes bored with it, or something else catches their
eye.
So, IMO this is all very simple to understand for a noob to sort out all the lingo we use in this hobby and understand that there are many different manufacturers making the parts that the Chinese are using to make the product we buy.
*All of this information was copy and pasted from various watch forums.
an ébauche (also known as 'movement blank') is a collection of unassembled parts used as the basis for assembling a watch movement. Even with ETA when the supplied ébauches to Omega, Breitling, Tisso, Oris, Tudor etc, They companies often decorated the base plates, bridges and rotor to emulate an “in house” movement, but the engine was all ETA. Same applies for Chinese made movements, some uber plain some very aesthetic,
Swiss Made Movement Manufacturers
To continue with our Swiss Made Watch Collection there are alternatives in
market that start to appear, mainly
Sellita – a Swiss company with its SW200, SW220 movements clones of the
ETA
2824-2 and ETA 2836-2 (however Sellita production line is fully overbooked,
though some movements are available via movement brokers but at random times and
scarce quantities)*read that up to 1 year in backlog with Selitta due to ETA pulling out and Sellita stepping in as a 3rd party seller.
Soprod – a Swiss company with its A10 movement which is a movement built to
replace the ETA 2892-A2 with improved specs (delivery times of over 12 months
time and premium pricing)
Valanvron – a Swiss company that is a relatively newcomer to industry
(established in 2010) that has in its portfolio the VAL24, VAL36 and VAL92
movements that are clones of the ETA 2824-2, ETA 2836-2 and ETA 2892-A2
movements. They base their movements in ebauches from Seagull with many
components replaced in Switzerland for Swiss ones and complete assembly of
movement made in Switzerland.
Asia clones there are also alternatives available mainly:
Hangzhou – a Chinese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical
movements to third parties. Their most looked for movements are the ETA 2824-2,
ETA 2836-2, Unitas 6497 and 6498 clone movements.
Miyota – a Japanese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical
movements to its group and third parties. Their most looked for movements are
the Miyota 8215, 8205, 9015 movements (though it is hard to have access to their
9015 movement though some movements are available via movement brokers but at
random times and scarce quantities)
Seagull – a Chinese fully integrated watch manufacturer that produces complete
watches and sells to third parties multitude of mechanical movements being the
most looked for its ETA 2824-2 (ST16), ETA 2836-2 (ST?), ETA 2892 (ST?), Unitas 6497 and 6498 clone (PAM reps)
movements.
*Shanghai – a Chinese fully integrated watch manufacturer that produces complete
watches and sells to third parties multitude of mechanical movements being the
most looked for its ETA 7750 clone movement
Time Module Seiko – a Japanese company dedicated exclusively to produce
mechanical movements to its group and third parties. Their most looked for
movements are the Seiko Time Module NE15 (Seiko 6R15), Seiko Time Module NH35
(Seiko 4R35) and Seiko Time Module NH36 (Seiko 4R36) movement (though it is hard
to have access to their movements with lead times of around 12 months though at
I hope this is as informative to you as it was to me...
Go in peace my sons....and screw up no more :bless:
