21J Asian Mvt vs Asian copy 2836 vs swiss ETA - worth the $?

[Tranman]

Hi all. Noob here. I've been reading as much as I can and still have some unanswered questions. First of all, I have bought one Rolex Datejust Rep from Josh for my dad a couple of years ago with a 21J asian mvt. 2 years later and my dad says it's stop working. He lives in a different state and I recommended that he take it to a jeweler to get it serviced (lubed) but he's afraid it maybe expensive. Maybe next time I visit, Ill just take it in for him.

Im now looking for a Rolex Sub or the GMT II (newest style) for myself but find that I am at a cross roads between 21J asian (myota) vs Asian copy 2836 vs swiss ETA.

I get the feeling that the asian copy eta and/or swiss eta (if it can be found) is "much?" better than the 21J asian myota movement, so it's really between the later two.


I've searched and read several post about this topic but some questions still remain.

So from what I've read...
It seems as though most of the members in the know would rather go with an asian copy b/c 1) you know what you are buying and getting 2) asian copy eta's are almost as good as the swiss eta. 3) (chinese) swiss eta aren't assembled in Switzerland anyhow. 4) not very many dealers available that will actually can get and send a swiss eta (no QC).

Proponents of swiss ETA seem to say that 1) the swiss ETA is better than the asian copy
2) there are known trusted dealers that will send you exactly what you pay for ie, D4M, Eurotimez.

What i am still confused about is this...
-assuming daily wear, approximately how long will these Reps last? a 21J myota vs an asian copy eta 2836 vs (chinese) swiss eta? Will the swiss eta last THAT much longer then the other two? or is it all a toss up? luck of the draw kinda thing?

-what do you guys do when your rep dies? Do you toss em and buy another one or does it make sense to replace the movement? If so what is the approx. cost of just the movement (21J myota vs asian copy eta vs swiss eta). Obviously if the cost of replacing a movment is almost as much as another watch, then I guess I'd just buy another Rep.


For a rolex sub, the prices seem to be around $100 for the 21J Asian movement, $230-$250 for the asian copy 2836, and $350-$380 for the swiss eta (made in china of course). My question is this? Is the juice worth the squeeze? Is the extra cost for the better movement worth the $ assuming that these 3 reps are of the same exact fit and finish. Also, how easy or hard is it to switch out a dead movement? Is it a simple matter of taking the case back off and popping the new one in? Or is this best left to the pro's (like you guys :mrgreen: )?

I know that these may be tough questions to answer and is more of a personal call, but I feel like I could make that decision of what to get once I get an idea of how long I can expect a rep to last with the different movements.

I guess if it comes to light that the asian 21J movment is just as good (or bad) as the asian copy eta 2836 or the (chinese) swiss eta 2836, then I would be inclined to just buy that one and save myself the $250 or so.

I want to know if the difference in movement b/t a $100 Noobmariner and a "perfect" sub (or the like) is more of a tangible difference or only a perceived difference. Do the differences really pan out in real life or is it just in the mind?

TIA for any help. Sorry if I am asking something that has already been answered or asking the impossible. Im new and Im just trying to learn.

Tranman

 

[fakemaster]

Wow. Long post. But there are several threads that answer this question. Simple answer. You will get an Asian clone. And no movement will be reliable if you don't service it. So that only leaves VPH. Though a big deal to most it may be to you. if you want the faster sweep then go 2836. Is it worth the extra money? Only you can answer that.

 

[Tranman]

Wow. Long post. But there are several threads that answer this question. Simple answer. You will get an Asian clone. And no movement will be reliable if you don't service it. So that only leaves VPH. Though a big deal to most it may be to you. if you want the faster sweep then go 2836. Is it worth the extra money? Only you can answer that.

So Fakey, your reccommendation is the asian copy 2836 over the "swiss" eta and take the lady out with the $100 i save?

Any idea about the approximate lifespan of the 3? My dad has what he thinks is a gen vintage Longines with an automatic mvmt that lasted 13 years of intermittant wear without servicing.
I'm pretty sure it's a rep b/c of it's weight and gold plating only on the surface of the cheap bracelet.
Well maybe it's a gen afterall. Lol.

 

[brtelec]

That is good advice. I have no problem buying a 21j movement because if it quits running you can just throw another one in for $20-.

 

[RWIGWH]

Wow. Long post. But there are several threads that answer this question. Simple answer. You will get an Asian clone. And no movement will be reliable if you don't service it. So that only leaves VPH. Though a big deal to most it may be to you. if you want the faster sweep then go 2836. Is it worth the extra money? Only you can answer that.

I have many 21J watches that have lasted me over 10 years without service.

 

[levelmanroger]

Overall, the 21J should (I stress SHOULD) hold up better over time, but with all movements it's the luck of the draw.
Another factor - the 21J watches are not just less expensive, but the often use different cases, different rehauts, different crystals, different faces, and always use different hands. Less care and little to no QC will go into the less expensive watch, with possibly not much higher standards for the more costly option. All of these factors often can lead to a less convincing rep.
IMO you really only have 2 choices: an Asian 2836 vs a Fakemaster build. I wouldn't buy the cheaper watch from a drop-ship dealer.
Price the 2836 watches from Hont and ask him about QCing the watch before it ships. WatchEden will also QC at your request.
Fakemaster builds his watches from scratch. He services the movement, QCs and seals everything. His stuff is bullet-proof.

Just know in the end that this hobby is unbelievably addictive. So whatever choice you make today really won't matter in the long run. You'll end up buying the other eventually.

Good luck and don't forget to POST PICS!

 

[RedSoxMan]

I think the middle path is the best. (Isn't that a Buddhist proverb?)

Okay, here's a rundown on all three.

-The 21j's are cheap (and replaceable for not much $); my problem is often the watch you get with it is compromised--mineral glass, cheaper hands and dial, lower-end bracelet, etc. This isn't always the case, but often enough to make me wary of these reps... (Also, the beat is slow.)

-The ETA Clones--on the other hand, tend to come with the "A" quality stuff: cases, sapphire crystal, best hands, dial, bracelet, etc. And, you're not paying ETA prices.

-Swiss ETA--if you can get the real deal, great. It's the best movement, the "real McCoy"--it can be serviced with parts, and last a long, long time. The problem is: most movements advertised as "Swiss ETA" are, in fact, Chinese clones. Thus, you're just throwing money out the window, unfortunatley.

Conclusion: "Take the middle path, Grasshopper."

RSM

 

[Tranman]

Well thanks for the replies so far. It sounds like the 21J myota movement can arrive DOA to lasting up towards 10 yrs without servicing - so luck of the draw.

So I will probably go with one of the other 2 (asian copy eta or chinese made swiss eta).
From what I understand the swiss eta is actual swiss parts just assembled in China somewhere without the QC and the copy, is just that a copy of the swiss one but with chinese made parts.

From what I've read, you can get a gen (chinese) swiss eta from either D4Me or Eurotimez.
My question still remains guys, is the extra $100 worth going from the asian copy upto the chinese swiss eta? (i know i know, that's an oxymoron in and of itself) Yes I am aware that it's a decision each person has to make for him/herself. Who thinks its worth the squeeze and who doesn't and why?

Does anyone have any idea of the approximate lifespan of one versus the other? or again, is it luck of the draw with the swiss vs asian copy eta? And the cost to replace the movement if it dies prematurely?

TIA,
TM

 

[RWIGWH]

Well thanks for the replies so far. It sounds like the 21J myota movement can arrive DOA to lasting up towards 10 yrs without servicing - so luck of the draw.

So I will probably go with one of the other 2 (asian copy eta or chinese made swiss eta).
From what I understand the swiss eta is actual swiss parts just assembled in China somewhere without the QC and the copy, is just that a copy of the swiss one but with chinese made parts.

From what I've read, you can get a gen (chinese) swiss eta from either D4Me or Eurotimez.
My question still remains guys, is the extra $100 worth going from the asian copy upto the chinese swiss eta? (i know i know, that's an oxymoron in and of itself) Yes I am aware that it's a decision each person has to make for him/herself. Who thinks its worth the squeeze and who doesn't and why?

Does anyone have any idea of the approximate lifespan of one versus the other? or again, is it luck of the draw with the swiss vs asian copy eta? And the cost to replace the movement if it dies prematurely?

TIA,
TM

No.

 

[daytona4me]

Sorry,, I will argue till the cows come home that the Genuine ETA movements we see in these replicas have parts made in Asian ETA factories and assembled in Asia.. and I believe that to be the case in 98% of them.

If the choice is available.. I'll take the ETA Clone all day..

 

[Tranman]

Cool D4Me, that's the type of definative opinion I was looking for. I have also read (somewhere) that its hard to get the asian clone eta repaired b/c the parts are non standard and can vary slightly, blah blah blah.

I would think that it would be cheaper just to replace a non working asian clone eta with another one and call it a day.

Any idea on the cost of a replacement asian clone 2836 and is it relatively easy or not to DIY (do it yourself)? Can a noob like me, with the proper tools, do it?

 

[PHicks]

I wasn't clear on your opinion MrZoSo! LOL

I'm with the RedSox (at least regarding this topic)

Besides the tangible aspects of owning a rep there is the emotive aspect. I simply do not wear my 21J watches as often as my ETA and ETA clone watches. I know its probably irrational but until I have a spate of 2836 failures I'll probably continue to think that way. In many respects the 2836 clone is the worst movement to own; it costs more money than the 21J and nobody in the CONUS can fix it! Of course if we were all totally rational about this issue we would all own a Timex and RWI wouldn't exist.

Tranman, just saw your input. Replacing a movement is not a job for the inexperienced. If you only pay $20 for the movement then, hey, give it a try. IMHO it's only worth considering if you intend to get into watch modification, repair etc. The hassle involved in learning this for a 1 off is not worth it; besides you need to buy all the tools.

 

[fakemaster]

So Fakey, your reccommendation is the asian copy 2836 over the "swiss" eta and take the lady out with the $100 i save?

Any idea about the approximate lifespan of the 3? My dad has what he thinks is a gen vintage Longines with an automatic mvmt that lasted 13 years of intermittant wear without servicing.
I'm pretty sure it's a rep b/c of it's weight and gold plating only on the surface of the cheap bracelet.
Well maybe it's a gen afterall. Lol.

Well as I said there are no true Swiss etas so it comes down to an Asian clone or a 21. Do I think it's worth it for the VPH? LOL no. I would always recommend the 21J because it is the most reliable movment especially if you don't take care of it.

 

[Tranman]

D@mn guys.....
so let's see....we have 1 vote for the 21J myota, 3 votes for the asian clone and 1 vote for the chinese swiss.
It looks like the clones are leading the war. I hope a few more of you experienced Reppers chime in.

So I'll need more than just a tool to open the back if i wanna swap a movement out? I do like to tinker, but I'll be honest, things tend to break in my hands :roll:

@FM, I don't mind having the 21J either. It sounds like there are different classes of 21J Rolex Subs as well. You have the REALLY POS Rollie sub for $20 and then you have your nicer ones for $100-$150. I can see where ppl would recommend staying away for the 21J movment b/c it tends to be associated with the really bad reps.

I just recall reading a review by Thor comparing Josh's noobmariner with Josh's "perfect" sub. Sounds like he ended up getting the same exact watches at 2 different price points. Either Josh screwed up (no QC) or the $100 asian 21 was one of the nicer ones.

 

[PHicks]

Tranman, just one word of warning. When you purchase a watch that is offered in 2836 or 21j versions it is not just the underlying movement that is different. Because the case, strap, movement etc come from different sources you will probably find that the 21J comes with it's own dial and hands. These may be significantly different from the 2836 one. Rolex collectors are very particular about these details. These watches have been copied more than any other watch on this planet and so they have evolved into very accurate reps. The smallest detail is therefore picked up on. Note that 99.9% of people on this planet couldn't spot the difference and even if they could they really wouldn't care a damn.

 

[daytona4me]

That is not always the case.. look at the VIPMariner.. wither it is the 21J or Gen ETA movement,, everything else is the same..

same applies when you compare the Milgauss in Gen ETA and 21J

These are two examples where the only difference is the movement.

 

[Tranman]

Tranman, just one word of warning. When you purchase a watch that is offered in 2836 or 21j versions it is not just the underlying movement that is different. Because the case, strap, movement etc come from different sources you will probably find that the 21J comes with it's own dial and hands. These may be significantly different from the 2836 one. Rolex collectors are very particular about these details. These watches have been copied more than any other watch on this planet and so they have evolved into very accurate reps. The smallest detail is therefore picked up on. Note that 99.9% of people on this planet couldn't spot the difference and even if they could they really wouldn't care a damn.

PHicks, thanks for the advice. I am definately one of the more anal ppl I know. As in attention to detail. I know you guys know what I meant by that....

Yes, I realize there are bad copies and a lot better copies even in the 21J realm. I plan to get it from one of our trusted dealers and they can tell me their opinion on the quality of the subs they can get. As far as movement goes, I'll probably go with the asian copy since the swiss ETA is assembled in asia, and this is a "rep" that we are talking about. If both the asian copy eta 2836 gets about the same life span as the swiss eta, it just makes sense to NOT spend the extra $100+ right now anyway. Who knows, by the time this rep dies, All Sub Reps will be near 1:1 and selling at $100. (i can hear FM now, "there are no 1:1 reps!). Well a guy can hope right?

IMO $250 is a dang good pricepoint for a 99%+ accurate replication of a $5-$7K watch. If the asian copy ETA gets me 3 years of use, then I'll be more than happy.

I saw the review of the new GMT II side by side with the Gen and I have to say that I am floored by what is available these days. I am excited to see what is in store for the future of reps. Seems like now is a good as anytime to get into the hobby. Thank you all for putting your time and effort into this forum!

@D4Me. just sent you a PM. Are you gonna be my dealer? :wink:

 

[daytona4me]

Please see Fakemasters Signature..

[blink:14s3lnex]"People will assume your gen is a fake before they presume your fake is a gen...if they care at all."[/blink:14s3lnex]

This is more true with Rolex than with any other replica.. can you pull it off? If not.. or the price does not match your age, , go with Omega, Breitling or Panerai.

 

[Tranman]

Please see Fakemasters Signature..

[blink:2k3rkgw0]"People will assume your gen is a fake before they presume your fake is a gen...if they care at all."[/blink:2k3rkgw0]

This is more true with Rolex than with any other replica.. can you pull it off? If not.. or the price does not match your age, , go with Omega, Breitling or Panerai.

Are you kidding me? Brietling or Panerai? I haven't really looked hard at either, but aren't they just as pricey if not more than Rolex?

Omega or Tag I can see.

 

[fakemaster]

There seems to be some things that you keep repeating that I don't get. First you keep putting Muyota next to 21J. There are levels of them but the POS $20 watches you're talking about do not have 21Js in them. They are not associated with the Canal street reps.

And the review of josh's watches that you are talking about sounds like the one I wrote.