2022 JKF (Cartel) 1680 Rolex Submariner review + modding the hell out of it

[pompompurin]

Intime recently released a bunch of 5513/1680/etc from JKF factory (Cartel).
I asked jtime to help me source this in 21j version (https://www.intime06.co/rollie/9102...edition-black-dial-on-ss-bracelet-style2.html):

I am not sure if JKF shares the same case used for 5513 and 1680. This is an area maybe someone else could find out by measuring the rehaut diameter (e.g., gen 5513 takes 26mm dial, whereas 1680 takes 26.5mm dial).

The watch arrived.





For the 21j version at least (I am not sure about the 2836-2 version), the hands look significantly better than the previous Cartel hands. But the dial (e.g., font) still looks bad. The dial and hands are still luminous and glow in the dark.



However, the rest of the review isn't so positive.

The crown/ tube sits flush with the case which screams rep and the full water resistance cannot be achieved. Also, the crown/ tube protrudes too far away from the bezel because there is a gap of metal between the crown/tube and the case (which also scream rep). Furthermore, the insides of the crownguard needs to be reshaped and opened.





As with all cartel/bp/jkf vintage,, the crown/tube height is lower than gen. However the other alternative is vietnam cases which are very expensive to build.



The clasp is terrible and needs to go, but at least the oyster bracelet has hollow middle links like gen.



The hollow end links bulge out of the top of the lugs.



The 21j movement inside.



The caseback teeth are shallow and not as sharp as the caseback teeth on a vietnam (1680) case (top).



However, a Vietnam 1680 caseback can fit the case.



There is too much metal removed from the area below the bezel and between both lug ends. However, maybe this can be excused as looking like an overpolished gen.




Overall, here is a list of advantages:
- The hands have improved significantly (for the 21j version at least), compared to the previous generation of cartel/bp/jkf
- The bracelet have hollow middle links like gen
- The crown's logo looks better and like a 704 crown, compared to the previous generation of cartel/bp/jkf.
- The lugs are significantly slimmer and closer to gen, compared to the previous generation of cartel/bp/jkf. I don't think the lugs need to be reshaped at all.

And here is a list of disadvantages:
- The crown/stem/tube height is wrong (which appears to be unavoidable for all generations of cartel/bp/jkf as they all suffer from the same problem)
- The DWO font is trash and needs to be replaced asap
- The dial still sucks (e.g., the font and logo)
- The bezel now uses the infamous bezel wire assembly (more on this later...). This also means swapping crystal is impossible or extremely hard to do.
- The lug holes are not drilled for 1.2mm springbars
- The insert is held on using adhesive instead of pressure-fitting like gen
- The clasp and end links are bad
- The insides of the crownguard needs rehshaping in nearly all directions
- The crown/tube sits flush with the case, which affects water resistance and its accuracy to functioning/ looking like gen
- The crown is not gen-spec and does not fit gen-spec tubes
- The caseback teeth are shallow which can be hard for caseback openers to grip onto

Part 2 will be about modding the hell out of this watch to address the above problems.
Stay tuned

 

[pompompurin]

Part 2 -- modding the hell out of the case.

Out of my curiosity, i placed a helenarou 5513 dial (26mm) inside the case. Unfortunately, the dial falls through the rehaut.



Measurements show that the stock dial is nearly 27mm in diameter. A gen-spec 26.5mm 1680 dial should fit this case.



To my massive disappointment, the latest case uses the infamous bezel wire assembly. This means that the bezel construction is not gen-like, and it is a major step backward because the previous generation of cartel/bp/jkf used a gen-like bezel construction. Furthermore, the infamous bezel wire assembly means that swapping crystal is impossible or very hard, and it is hard/ fiddly for most people to remove the bezel for modding/ swapping insert. The bezel can also be easily bent, causing it to not rotate well when reinstalled.



The stock dial is removed, revealing the trashy DWO fonts (too thin, some numbers like "1" are bent, and the font has no gen-like features (e.g., serfis or raised ink)). The previous generation of cartel/bp/jkf has better DWO font. But maybe poor DWO font is solely reserved for the 21j version and not the 2836-2 version.



The crownguard looks like this before modding.



After a few rounds of filing.



After the crownguard was reshaped to my liking (which took a lot of time because i also needed to remove metal between the crown/tube and the bezel), i re-tap the case so that it can take better tubes:



Then I polished it up.



I then went back to replacing the DWO. A Rafflesdial open 6/9 dwo is installed instead.




Now the case is done:
- The crownguards is reshaped (inside and outside)
- A better tube is installed
- A replica gen-spec 704 crown is installed
- A better insert with service font is installed, along with the stock lume
- The lugs are softened
- The bezel wire is modified so that the bezel turns easier with less friction





I am currently deciding on which Vietnam dial to use, and I will be either reusing the stock hands or rafflestime hands.

 

[RDRoss]

Really impressive review and modding journal Sir. Can’t wait to see the finished product.

 

[pompompurin]

Really impressive review and modding journal Sir. Can’t wait to see the finished product.

I can't wait to finish this soon as well!!!
I am still waiting for a rep 704 crown to arrive (because the current one has a broken clutch), and I am deciding which Vietnam dial to use

 

[Kwokinator]

Very helpful review! Thanks and can’t wait to see end result!

 

[wubsub]

wow, just seen these on intime and was wondering, thanks for solving my curiosity and solid job with the cg reshape and mods

 

[pompompurin]

Very helpful review! Thanks and can’t wait to see end result!

No problem, i also look forward to the end results. I think this could be a cheap/ acceptable beater if modded correctly.

wow, just seen these on intime and was wondering, thanks for solving my curiosity and solid job with the cg reshape and mods

Thanks! I was curious as well so I ordered this.

It is also possible that the 21j version is different the 2836-2 version. In the future, I might order the 5513 version with 2836-2 to see if the clasp is better and if it could fit a gen-spec 26mm dial, since the intime pics show a better looking version compared to mine.

 

[vcelkama]

Very nice guide and watching this review and project closely. I’m justing building 2 1665s - one double red with viet case and the other is great white with modified JKF case. Both using slow beat 2846.

By going with gen spec dial and using raffles DWO can be an issue - not perfectly aligned. Any thoughts about this? I’m fighting with it now… I wasn’t able to find better DWO so far… also I’m curious to seee how you plan to fit viet gen spec dial to 21j movement - gluing dial feet? Dial dots?

thanks, good luck and looking forward to see this project finished ;-)

 

[Drummania]

It’s interesting they changed the dial diameter to 27mm. It was 26 for everything before, including 1680.

 

[oldtools]

I can't wait to see the finished project. Where will you source a better clasp?

 

[vcelkama]

It’s interesting they changed the dial diameter to 27mm. It was 26 for everything before, including 1680.

Same experience - got 1680 JKF from Marv 4 months back and it has 26 mm dial and “standard“ bezel assembly (no wire spring). While having a larger dial now is a good move (to be able to fit gen spec one), the spring bezel assembly is not that good… it was pretty easy to use Clark /Sternkreuz plexis before which is difficult with current bezel assembly.

 

[369mafia]

Thank you for the tutuorial and education . I had no idea that sub dials were 26-27mm

why is the crystal impossible to remove, you say because of the wire mechanism on the bezel? I dont quite get what you mean here.
are they glued in?

 

[pompompurin]

By going with gen spec dial and using raffles DWO can be an issue - not perfectly aligned. Any thoughts about this? I’m fighting with it now… I wasn’t able to find better DWO so far… also I’m curious to seee how you plan to fit viet gen spec dial to 21j movement - gluing dial feet? Dial dots?

I reused the stock jkf dial as a jig for positioning the dwo. As for vietnam dial and DWO alignment, that will be down to luck partly. If needed, i would position the DWO numbers from 10 to approx 19 to lean towards the left side of the date window so that there is more room for centering the other numbers.

I prefer to apply double-sided sticky tape onto the dial spacer, then use the pressure of the bent movement tabs to hold the dial in place. Applying double-sided sticky tape between the dial spacer and dial allows me to align the dial window before i screw the movement tab/ screws firmly. This has been my own developed method since i built my first franken in 2016, so it has been working perfectly for me.

It’s interesting they changed the dial diameter to 27mm. It was 26 for everything before, including 1680.

I used to own a cartel 1680 briefly and I recall that the rehaut diameter can hold a 5513 (26mm) and 1680 (26.5mm) dial. If anything, I prefer the rehaut diameter to be narrower because it can be widened afterwards for a 1680 build.

Hopefully, I will eventually buy a 5513 2836-2 version to see if the rehaut diameter can hold a gen spec 26mm dial.

I can't wait to see the finished project. Where will you source a better clasp?

I am not sure where. At the moment, maybe gen clasp cover is the only solution.
The rafflesdial clasps look bad unfotunately.

Thank you for the tutuorial and education . I had no idea that sub dials were 26-27mm

why is the crystal impossible to remove, you say because of the wire mechanism on the bezel? I dont quite get what you mean here.
are they glued in?

The basic parts of bezel wire assemblies are a bezel, bezel wire, and the case. There is no separate part for the crystal retainer.
In bezel wire assemblies, the crystal retainer is integrated into the case as a single piece. The stock crystal is pressure fitted into the case and its integrated crystal retainer.

Therefore, swapping crystal would be painful, if the crystal diameter is mismatching (because you cannot modify the integrated crystal retainer so easily) and it can be very difficult to remove the pressure fitted crystal.

As you can see, the crystal here is actually pressure fitted into the case's integrated crystal retainer

 

[369mafia]

@pompompurin Interesting this is the first case I have been like this from my understanding the early cartel bond subs 6538 had a similar style of crystal install but didn't have that built in bezel retaining ring. Yah that would make modification challenging. is the crystal glued into that channel or pressed in?

 

[pompompurin]

@pompompurin Interesting this is the first case I have been like this from my understanding the early cartel bond subs 6538 had a similar style of crystal install but didn't have that built in bezel retaining ring. Yah that would make modification challenging. is the crystal glued into that channel or pressed in?

I assume it is pressure fitted, since there is a lot of metal to keep the crystal in place.

I didn't dare to press the crystal out to find out more, in case i cannot reinstall the crystal properly.

 

[vcelkama]

"I prefer to apply double-sided sticky tape onto the dial spacer, then use the pressure of the bent movement tabs to hold the dial in place. Applying double-sided sticky tape between the dial spacer and dial allows me to align the dial window before i screw the movement tab/ screws firmly. This has been my own developed method since i built my first franken in 2016, so it has been working perfectly for me."

This is something I'm very interested in - can you please post some photos? I have read about it in other discussion but I'm still not sure ho does it work with bended movement tabs. Fixing the dial to dial ring using double sided tape sounds ok - I guess you use thin strips of double sided tape on top of the dial spacer and then stick the dial onto it. However I'm not sure how do you use bended movement tabs and also how do you align everything before you put it into the case and after that. Thanks!

 

[pompompurin]

"I prefer to apply double-sided sticky tape onto the dial spacer, then use the pressure of the bent movement tabs to hold the dial in place. Applying double-sided sticky tape between the dial spacer and dial allows me to align the dial window before i screw the movement tab/ screws firmly. This has been my own developed method since i built my first franken in 2016, so it has been working perfectly for me."

This is something I'm very interested in - can you please post some photos? I have read about it in other discussion but I'm still not sure ho does it work with bended movement tabs. Fixing the dial to dial ring using double sided tape sounds ok - I guess you use thin strips of double sided tape on top of the dial spacer and then stick the dial onto it. However I'm not sure how do you use bended movement tabs and also how do you align everything before you put it into the case and after that. Thanks!

Yea, I mentioned it briefly before in my other build: https://forum.replica-watch.info/th...x-submariner-1680-using-a-milk-case.10621698/

If I take photos, the photos won't show anything different because it is so subtle.

In a nutshell.. When you try this method, try installing the movement tabs and screws as usual and see if the dial moves when you mess with the crown. If the dial moves, then bend the movement tabs slightly, reinstall the tabs and screws, and repeat

 

[vcelkama]

"I prefer to apply double-sided sticky tape onto the dial spacer, then use the pressure of the bent movement tabs to hold the dial in place. Applying double-sided sticky tape between the dial spacer and dial allows me to align the dial window before i screw the movement tab/ screws firmly. This has been my own developed method since i built my first franken in 2016, so it has been working perfectly for me."

This is something I'm very interested in - can you please post some photos? I have read about it in other discussion but I'm still not sure ho does it work with bended movement tabs. Fixing the dial to dial ring using double sided tape sounds ok - I guess you use thin strips of double sided tape on top of the dial spacer and then stick the dial onto it. However I'm not sure how do you use bended movement tabs and also how do you align everything before you put it into the case and after that. Thanks!

Ok, so if I understand it right:

1. install and align the new DWO with "old" dial using dial feet and then remove that dial
2. put dial spacer on the movement (not gluing it there) and apply double sided tape in top of the dial spacer
3. stick dial on the dial spacer (to the double sided tape) while aligning the date window and central pinion
4. attach hands (while the dial with movement ring can move - rotate?)
5. fit the complete setup into the case (case coming from the top on the movement and then turning it upside down)
6. attach movement tabs to the movement while bending the tabs so that there is a force applied to the movement to push the dial to the front - if the dial is not fixed by this and it still moves tabs should be more bended). Seeing your other posts it seems that your are bending the tabs up, right? (not down)

Correct?

 

[pompompurin]

Ok, so if I understand it right:

1. install and align the new DWO with "old" dial using dial feet and then remove that dial
2. put dial spacer on the movement (not gluing it there) and apply double sided tape in top of the dial spacer
3. stick dial on the dial spacer (to the double sided tape) while aligning the date window and central pinion
4. attach hands (while the dial with movement ring can move - rotate?)
5. fit the complete setup into the case (case coming from the top on the movement and then turning it upside down)
6. attach movement tabs to the movement while bending the tabs so that there is a force applied to the movement to push the dial to the front - if the dial is not fixed by this and it still moves tabs should be more bended). Seeing your other posts it seems that your are bending the tabs up, right? (not down)

Correct?

Looks correct to me
I also prefer to set the hands after I installed the movement, if the crystal can be removed. This is because it is easier and I can use my thumbs to further align the dial

 

[pettyp]

Wow, just wanted to say this is amazing work - can't wait to see the "finished" project!