I have a bunch of images and text to write so I will do this in two stages so please bear with me.
Part One
One of my special projects is building a 116613 two tone back dial sub with custom 18kt (solid) parts. My intention has always been to build this on a noob ceramic sub base but a couple issues were bothering me about the noob. Two main issues are the case, and the rehaut engraving. The genuine ceramic sub wears bigger than the GMT, and this is mainly due to the fact that the sub uses a different and beefier case than than the 116710 (stainless) and 116713 (two tone) GMT. From a distance they look the same but when you look closely or compare them over layed in Photoshop the differences are clear. Of course before investing the money in molding certain parts in gold I need to pick a winning horse. So the search was on for the best case.
An odd note: The Parnis homage watches are actually very close and accurate to gen in many aspects. The GMT is the correct familiar case and the ceramic Parnis sub surprisingly has a correctly proportioned 116610 case!
Whodathunkit.
But no rehaut engraving, and iffy crystal with a bevel top & bottom (making water proofing a nightmare as there is only about a millimeter of gasket to begin with) make it more trouble than it is worth. Plus the case back is thin on the Parnis and it wouldn't handle the depth a rep case would.
I noticed in Boneseys' Hulk post some interesting 116610LV cases. They seems to have the right shape and equally important the rehaut engraving aligned with the dial markers. "My mind was a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." -Name the source of the quote and you get a cookie. I hatched a new plan: Buy a green ceramic sub & a noon black ceramic sub and mix and match parts! Then I could gold plate the hands, the markers, remove the bezel to mold from, and use center links, center SEL's and other parts for molds too. Off I went to order the two subs. Both came from Timesshop. One is the LV Ceramic and the other is the trusty 'ol noob ceramic sub.
The Good and the bad.
As I looked at these two sitting on my workspace it occurred to me that I might want to vet my idea in a trial build. The LV super case has a bezel easily removed unlike the noob, and it weighs less so it is a winner when it comes to casting 18kt parts from it. However, hardly anything on these two is interchangeable. The case back is larger on the LV (and it interchanges with the Parnis Sub case - is this a clue?) the bezels are different construction, though both are 120 clicks. The SELs cant interchange and even the links are different as well as parts of the clasp. These are two completely different animals folks. Upon tear down I found that the date windows are different too. The LV has the date window out over the stock ETA date wheel, where as most of the Rolex reps have it further inboard requiring a wider date wheel overlay to bring the date into the correct position. A gen Rolex dial has the same date window location as the noob dial (for reference). Unfortunately this means that the magnifiers on the crystals are in different positions.
Yep, I stepped in it big time, but stick around, for as you will see the added work is most definitely worth the effort. This is likely the best Ceramic Sub rep out there bar none when done...as you will soon see.
From the noob I will use the dial & the Black Bezel insert, along with the clasp.
From the LV Ceramic I will use the case, the crystal, the bezel, the bracelet and SEL's, and the movement. The movement is one of the new ETA 2836-2 super-clones, ruining strong and true. I will also use the round dial markers as they are much more accurate. It requires some dial surgery as the marker posts are larger than on the noob but again, as you will see... it be worth the effort. The LV has the correct small hour hand so we will remove the hands and throw them into acetone. A note about the LV - it has green lume. I will super lume hands dial and pearl with BG W9 super-lumiova anyway so for my purposes no biggie.
I will custom build a pearl with a true sapphire lens (you is gonna love dis).
I will install a BK date wheel overlay.
Time to channel PINK and get this party started...
Can you see the markings on the LV case lugs? 750 lower right and coronet upper left? More in this later.
The steel is whiter, brighter, and has more sheen on the LV bracelet. Lucky me as the SEL bottom from the noob is fatter and would not fit the case with out surgery. The clasp is too shiny around the logo of the fold out section and I was not happy with the crown on the flip lock, so I opted to use the noob clasp.
The black in the coronet is polishing rouge, and it came free with the sub. ;p
Side view of the noob flip lock:
Side view of the Ceramic LV flip lock:
From the top:
You can probably see why we chose the noob clasp. It is surprising close to gen.
Left is the LV. Right is the noob. You can see that the lugs are thicker on the LV which is as it should be and that the crown guards are more pronounced and hefty, again like gen. Even the case back is beefier on the LV. Note the case markings I mentioned earlier. This case was likely modeled off of a 116618 ir 116619 all gold sub. But for my purposes, even though they will not be seen, I want them gone. So I whipped out my stainless eraser...
Note too the deeper ledge between the lugs on the noob to the right where the bottom of the SEL would fit in. Apparently construction on the case is more accurate, but this is why a bracelet swap is out of the question with out some serious "massaging".
The Noob GMT case does have one plus: The case back is recessed and flush, like the Gen.
The LV case back is not flush but raised a bit, unlike the Gen. Look at those gorgeous crown guards!
You can really see the crown guard difference below. Unfortunately it is a huge tell and it never bothered you before did it, until now. But now that you do know you will loose sleep over it, I know I did. But you can thank me later.
At least now you now a quick way to spot a rep 116610 case.
Lugs are thicker on the LV as they are on the Gen. (Below)
BTW, you will have to excuse some of these images, most were taken with my iPhone as it is easier to use while working than a Nikon. Low light and zoom can make it a little grainy.
The Side View reveals how much more substantial the LV case is. Note the great LV Bezel teeth (Top). They look very close to Gen.
I did use the Noob crown as I feel it is more accurate (Bottom).
Why are details so hit and miss wit the Chinese? You make all that effort to build an accurate case with the correct hour hand and then screw the pooch by using green lume? Common! BTW, the date font on the date wheel of the LV is great. Lines up just like BK's. BK wins because his font is a tad bit bolder which fills the window nicely but everything else is spot on.
Both shipped with clone ETA's but the super-clone on the left has great amplitude, up there with a genuine ETA 2836-2. Keeps perfect time with virtually zero beat error too.
Super-clone rotor:
Clone rotor:
Super-Clone:
Clone:
Before timing the movement (super-clone):
Noob Case Back:
LV case back (maybe I can fill it with bondo...grrrr):
Serials at 6 (Noob on top):
Model Numbers at 12:
(Hey, what's up with that noob? This is the first time I have seen this on a noob. Usually it has the correct 116610. Someone changed case suppliers methinks)
The Surgery
I scraped off the marker glue off the back of the noob dial and punched out all the little markers with a pin. I removed the round markers only from the green dial and threw them all into acetone to dissolve the lume. In the case of the LV the lume is some plastic composite and at best it gets soft enough to remove with a small screw driver (yellow). One must be careful not to scratch the markers.
Next I built a little drill handle with my black driver, remove the blade and insert drill bit. It is the perfect size.
Best to stabilize the dial with a finger from the other hand...don't want it to slip. The trick is not to drill all the way through but approx halfway to three quarters the way through, tehn complete the drilling from the opposite side. This prevents tear through and leaves a cleaner hole.
One down... seven to go. See how much smaller the noob marker posts are? The tiny hole will guide the drill bit and keep you on center.
Dial marker post from the Round markers off of the LV:
One Marker Placed:
And the back side:
Four holes down, four to go:
The view of the hole drilled about half way through:
Blowing off the shavings:
What ever you do, DON'T WIPE THE SHAVINGS OFF! Especially on the dial side. You will scratch the dial. And if you use a cloth and forget and use it later to wipe down your watch you will scratch that too!
Viola! All the drilling is done.
Markers installed:
It's worth it no? Common, the proper markers really make a difference!
Next item, some lume. Here is what I am using for this project: BG W9 (Blue Green Night White Day). This is the closet to Rolex lume you can get. Chromalight is used in the super case subs and in the Deep Sea. It is a special color formulated for Rolex and Tri-tec cannot (will not) sell it. However, this stuff is very close in color and hue.
This stuff is bright and it glows for days. The noob lume was good to begin with and w@atchlume was even better, but this stuff... after eight hours I can still see it in the dark, even though it is dim after that long. It is so bright that even in some daylight photos or bright white light settings in doors the markers get a blue cast to them from the glow. I can even read from the glow in the dark.
End Part One
Part two
Lumed Dial
I painted the base of the markers with white gloss testors acrylic paint. White paint background does make a difference. The lume is brighter and the markers are whiter in daylight. I used two coats of lume after the paint dried.
UV light box off to the side really makes the charge up fast.
And now for something different completely different...
You know how no one has a good pearl for a ceramic Rolex? Well, I found some Rolex documents online which show the gen Pearl construction. (See below)
The pearl is very similar to a 16610 pearl in construction. The sapphire lens has a pocket underneath where the lume is installed, and then it is glued into the 18kt white gold cup. If only I had one of those! Hmmm....
You know, I once posted that maybe a watch material pearl could be used to make a better pearl for a ceramic sub or Deep Sea. I was quickly shot down by the naysayers as it is for a 16610 only. Oh ye of little faith!
It just so happens I keep a few on hand. I tried soaking one in acetone to get the sapphire lens out of the WM pearl (BTW it does have a sapphire lens and construction is gen-like which is why it looks so good), but no luck. Time for a new approach. (Just as an aside, I am working on a white gold base that will be accurate and I have contacted a lens maker to see about producing a bunch of these lenses to address the pearl issue once and for all.) So I drilled a hole in the back of the pearl, and pushed the lens out of the front. This little lens is only 2mm so don't sneeze!
Under side of the lens
Top view (note the remnants of the old lume in the cup and on the lens.)
Wait, it gets better! A couple more views:
Now first of all (and this is in part why I am working to make a new base for the lens) let me say that no it will not fit the noob pearl, not with out some coaxing. I removed the plasticized lume and cleaned it up but the metal cup is a tad too shallow and a tad too narrow... think micro tad. So I fabed up something to hand drill out the cup a little deeper and a smidgeon (technical term) wider and that little sucker slipped right on in there. Now I know you are dying to see the result, and I can say in all honesty this is probably the greatest watch mod of all time (Yeah I am modest too) but this is awesome. It is as close to gen as you are going to get, short of a better metal base. I did another one on my BK DSSD which I will post later. But every time I make one it gets better and better. I think I can make one good enough to be a replacement for a gen with a lost pearl. Time will tell.
Check it out boys and girls:
No that is not a Gen you are looking at, it is a noob insert with a modified pearl using super-luminova and a WM lens out of a WM pearl!
Lume shot:
And the final product after I reassembled it:
Look at the SEL's!
Although one lug can not be seen in this image that the upper left lug no longer has the crown the 750 is also gone. A rubber abrasive wheel had the proper grit to match the finish pattern of the back of the case. I followed that up with a scratch brush.
A Gen:
I wish I had better images of mine but the lume is so bright it is hard to photograph in harsh lighting. I will try to add some light box images later on.
I hope you will agree it was worth the effort. (And the images do not do it justice)
I tested the case to 200 Meters (660 ft). It survived for a couple hours with no leaks.
-DA
Part One
One of my special projects is building a 116613 two tone back dial sub with custom 18kt (solid) parts. My intention has always been to build this on a noob ceramic sub base but a couple issues were bothering me about the noob. Two main issues are the case, and the rehaut engraving. The genuine ceramic sub wears bigger than the GMT, and this is mainly due to the fact that the sub uses a different and beefier case than than the 116710 (stainless) and 116713 (two tone) GMT. From a distance they look the same but when you look closely or compare them over layed in Photoshop the differences are clear. Of course before investing the money in molding certain parts in gold I need to pick a winning horse. So the search was on for the best case.
An odd note: The Parnis homage watches are actually very close and accurate to gen in many aspects. The GMT is the correct familiar case and the ceramic Parnis sub surprisingly has a correctly proportioned 116610 case!
Whodathunkit.
But no rehaut engraving, and iffy crystal with a bevel top & bottom (making water proofing a nightmare as there is only about a millimeter of gasket to begin with) make it more trouble than it is worth. Plus the case back is thin on the Parnis and it wouldn't handle the depth a rep case would.
I noticed in Boneseys' Hulk post some interesting 116610LV cases. They seems to have the right shape and equally important the rehaut engraving aligned with the dial markers. "My mind was a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." -Name the source of the quote and you get a cookie. I hatched a new plan: Buy a green ceramic sub & a noon black ceramic sub and mix and match parts! Then I could gold plate the hands, the markers, remove the bezel to mold from, and use center links, center SEL's and other parts for molds too. Off I went to order the two subs. Both came from Timesshop. One is the LV Ceramic and the other is the trusty 'ol noob ceramic sub.
The Good and the bad.
As I looked at these two sitting on my workspace it occurred to me that I might want to vet my idea in a trial build. The LV super case has a bezel easily removed unlike the noob, and it weighs less so it is a winner when it comes to casting 18kt parts from it. However, hardly anything on these two is interchangeable. The case back is larger on the LV (and it interchanges with the Parnis Sub case - is this a clue?) the bezels are different construction, though both are 120 clicks. The SELs cant interchange and even the links are different as well as parts of the clasp. These are two completely different animals folks. Upon tear down I found that the date windows are different too. The LV has the date window out over the stock ETA date wheel, where as most of the Rolex reps have it further inboard requiring a wider date wheel overlay to bring the date into the correct position. A gen Rolex dial has the same date window location as the noob dial (for reference). Unfortunately this means that the magnifiers on the crystals are in different positions.
Yep, I stepped in it big time, but stick around, for as you will see the added work is most definitely worth the effort. This is likely the best Ceramic Sub rep out there bar none when done...as you will soon see.
From the noob I will use the dial & the Black Bezel insert, along with the clasp.
From the LV Ceramic I will use the case, the crystal, the bezel, the bracelet and SEL's, and the movement. The movement is one of the new ETA 2836-2 super-clones, ruining strong and true. I will also use the round dial markers as they are much more accurate. It requires some dial surgery as the marker posts are larger than on the noob but again, as you will see... it be worth the effort. The LV has the correct small hour hand so we will remove the hands and throw them into acetone. A note about the LV - it has green lume. I will super lume hands dial and pearl with BG W9 super-lumiova anyway so for my purposes no biggie.
I will custom build a pearl with a true sapphire lens (you is gonna love dis).
I will install a BK date wheel overlay.
Time to channel PINK and get this party started...
Can you see the markings on the LV case lugs? 750 lower right and coronet upper left? More in this later.
The steel is whiter, brighter, and has more sheen on the LV bracelet. Lucky me as the SEL bottom from the noob is fatter and would not fit the case with out surgery. The clasp is too shiny around the logo of the fold out section and I was not happy with the crown on the flip lock, so I opted to use the noob clasp.
The black in the coronet is polishing rouge, and it came free with the sub. ;p
Side view of the noob flip lock:
Side view of the Ceramic LV flip lock:
From the top:
You can probably see why we chose the noob clasp. It is surprising close to gen.
Left is the LV. Right is the noob. You can see that the lugs are thicker on the LV which is as it should be and that the crown guards are more pronounced and hefty, again like gen. Even the case back is beefier on the LV. Note the case markings I mentioned earlier. This case was likely modeled off of a 116618 ir 116619 all gold sub. But for my purposes, even though they will not be seen, I want them gone. So I whipped out my stainless eraser...
Note too the deeper ledge between the lugs on the noob to the right where the bottom of the SEL would fit in. Apparently construction on the case is more accurate, but this is why a bracelet swap is out of the question with out some serious "massaging".
The Noob GMT case does have one plus: The case back is recessed and flush, like the Gen.
The LV case back is not flush but raised a bit, unlike the Gen. Look at those gorgeous crown guards!
You can really see the crown guard difference below. Unfortunately it is a huge tell and it never bothered you before did it, until now. But now that you do know you will loose sleep over it, I know I did. But you can thank me later.
At least now you now a quick way to spot a rep 116610 case.
Lugs are thicker on the LV as they are on the Gen. (Below)
BTW, you will have to excuse some of these images, most were taken with my iPhone as it is easier to use while working than a Nikon. Low light and zoom can make it a little grainy.
The Side View reveals how much more substantial the LV case is. Note the great LV Bezel teeth (Top). They look very close to Gen.
I did use the Noob crown as I feel it is more accurate (Bottom).
Why are details so hit and miss wit the Chinese? You make all that effort to build an accurate case with the correct hour hand and then screw the pooch by using green lume? Common! BTW, the date font on the date wheel of the LV is great. Lines up just like BK's. BK wins because his font is a tad bit bolder which fills the window nicely but everything else is spot on.
Both shipped with clone ETA's but the super-clone on the left has great amplitude, up there with a genuine ETA 2836-2. Keeps perfect time with virtually zero beat error too.
Super-clone rotor:
Clone rotor:
Super-Clone:
Clone:
Before timing the movement (super-clone):
Noob Case Back:
LV case back (maybe I can fill it with bondo...grrrr):
Serials at 6 (Noob on top):
Model Numbers at 12:
(Hey, what's up with that noob? This is the first time I have seen this on a noob. Usually it has the correct 116610. Someone changed case suppliers methinks)
The Surgery
I scraped off the marker glue off the back of the noob dial and punched out all the little markers with a pin. I removed the round markers only from the green dial and threw them all into acetone to dissolve the lume. In the case of the LV the lume is some plastic composite and at best it gets soft enough to remove with a small screw driver (yellow). One must be careful not to scratch the markers.
Next I built a little drill handle with my black driver, remove the blade and insert drill bit. It is the perfect size.
Best to stabilize the dial with a finger from the other hand...don't want it to slip. The trick is not to drill all the way through but approx halfway to three quarters the way through, tehn complete the drilling from the opposite side. This prevents tear through and leaves a cleaner hole.
One down... seven to go. See how much smaller the noob marker posts are? The tiny hole will guide the drill bit and keep you on center.
Dial marker post from the Round markers off of the LV:
One Marker Placed:
And the back side:
Four holes down, four to go:
The view of the hole drilled about half way through:
Blowing off the shavings:
What ever you do, DON'T WIPE THE SHAVINGS OFF! Especially on the dial side. You will scratch the dial. And if you use a cloth and forget and use it later to wipe down your watch you will scratch that too!
Viola! All the drilling is done.
Markers installed:
It's worth it no? Common, the proper markers really make a difference!
Next item, some lume. Here is what I am using for this project: BG W9 (Blue Green Night White Day). This is the closet to Rolex lume you can get. Chromalight is used in the super case subs and in the Deep Sea. It is a special color formulated for Rolex and Tri-tec cannot (will not) sell it. However, this stuff is very close in color and hue.
This stuff is bright and it glows for days. The noob lume was good to begin with and w@atchlume was even better, but this stuff... after eight hours I can still see it in the dark, even though it is dim after that long. It is so bright that even in some daylight photos or bright white light settings in doors the markers get a blue cast to them from the glow. I can even read from the glow in the dark.
End Part One
Part two
Lumed Dial
I painted the base of the markers with white gloss testors acrylic paint. White paint background does make a difference. The lume is brighter and the markers are whiter in daylight. I used two coats of lume after the paint dried.
UV light box off to the side really makes the charge up fast.
And now for something different completely different...
You know how no one has a good pearl for a ceramic Rolex? Well, I found some Rolex documents online which show the gen Pearl construction. (See below)
The pearl is very similar to a 16610 pearl in construction. The sapphire lens has a pocket underneath where the lume is installed, and then it is glued into the 18kt white gold cup. If only I had one of those! Hmmm....
You know, I once posted that maybe a watch material pearl could be used to make a better pearl for a ceramic sub or Deep Sea. I was quickly shot down by the naysayers as it is for a 16610 only. Oh ye of little faith!
It just so happens I keep a few on hand. I tried soaking one in acetone to get the sapphire lens out of the WM pearl (BTW it does have a sapphire lens and construction is gen-like which is why it looks so good), but no luck. Time for a new approach. (Just as an aside, I am working on a white gold base that will be accurate and I have contacted a lens maker to see about producing a bunch of these lenses to address the pearl issue once and for all.) So I drilled a hole in the back of the pearl, and pushed the lens out of the front. This little lens is only 2mm so don't sneeze!
Under side of the lens
Top view (note the remnants of the old lume in the cup and on the lens.)
Wait, it gets better! A couple more views:
Now first of all (and this is in part why I am working to make a new base for the lens) let me say that no it will not fit the noob pearl, not with out some coaxing. I removed the plasticized lume and cleaned it up but the metal cup is a tad too shallow and a tad too narrow... think micro tad. So I fabed up something to hand drill out the cup a little deeper and a smidgeon (technical term) wider and that little sucker slipped right on in there. Now I know you are dying to see the result, and I can say in all honesty this is probably the greatest watch mod of all time (Yeah I am modest too) but this is awesome. It is as close to gen as you are going to get, short of a better metal base. I did another one on my BK DSSD which I will post later. But every time I make one it gets better and better. I think I can make one good enough to be a replacement for a gen with a lost pearl. Time will tell.
Check it out boys and girls:
No that is not a Gen you are looking at, it is a noob insert with a modified pearl using super-luminova and a WM lens out of a WM pearl!
Lume shot:
And the final product after I reassembled it:
Look at the SEL's!
Although one lug can not be seen in this image that the upper left lug no longer has the crown the 750 is also gone. A rubber abrasive wheel had the proper grit to match the finish pattern of the back of the case. I followed that up with a scratch brush.
A Gen:
I wish I had better images of mine but the lume is so bright it is hard to photograph in harsh lighting. I will try to add some light box images later on.
I hope you will agree it was worth the effort. (And the images do not do it justice)
I tested the case to 200 Meters (660 ft). It survived for a couple hours with no leaks.
-DA
so that's going to get left alone. Hopefully I can just swap the movement+dial+hands as one piece from the BK/Noob to the supercase, swap the bezel insert, remove and reposition the cyclops and be done. If that works out, and if my AR'ed cyclops mod works as well as I hope it will, I'll send the crystal off to Chief and do that as well (I'm trying the mod that Lanakai did last year, but with an AR'ed cyclops from finedd as well as AR on the crystal).
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