"Swiss" ETA / Asian Superclones / Asian Clones - What's the best choice?

[avenger007]

Here are a few of my experiences.

I've never paid for "Swiss" anything in a replica. When I joined the forum, the debate about "real" Swiss vs "Asian" Swiss was just starting to heat up, and at the time the consensus was that you really didn't know what you were going to get, so why pay the extra money? I'm notoriously cheap when it comes to replicas, anyway, so I have never bothered with the extra cost. I tend to agree with the folks above that you will probably get a better standard of movement when ordering "Swiss" vs the standard clone, but I don't believe for a minute that the movement has ever been to Switzerland.

My only problems with any clone movement I've had echo Sead's thoughts. Keyless is a bugger. If you plan on doing any modding yourself, keep that in mind and be careful.

There are tons and tons of posts about the infamous A7750. I've owned four replicas with that movement, and all have performed flawlessly. These were standard configurations, no seconds @ 6. In fact, the A7750 in my SMP chrono remains the smoothest winding movement in any replica I've owned. I don't own any of the four any more, however, so I cannot speak to their longevity.

If you are planning on keeping the watch for the long term, I think it would definitely be of interest to either service the movement or replace the movement with a gen ETA or Sellita when the clone goes belly up. If you desire a near bullet-proof movement, skip the autos altogether and get a hand wound A6497 or ST-19. Those are about as solid as they come in this hobby for movements found in the upper end of reps. I am curious to see the developments of the new "highbeat" 21j's that we are starting to see. Time will tell if those will be a better option.

These are my opinions and experiences only. Your mileage may vary.

 

[ALE7575]

@coop
@avenger

Many thanks my friends to take your time and for your valuable comments
You are very kind
ALE

 

[levelmanroger]

Here's my opinion:

I prefer Swiss IF I believe I will get a decent Swiss movement. That's the hard part.
I ordered Swiss in the 2 SOSF I bought from Hont, and got very good new Swiss 2836 movements in both.
Since then, however, I've learned to buy clone. The price difference is significant, and I've never had a problem with one. Plus, if they die I can buy a real new Swiss movement for replacement for the money saved at the front end plus the price of a service. So it makes economic sense as well.
Plus when ordering clone, I know I'll get exactly what I paid for.
For now, however, I'd opt for Selita movements until we start getting fake and/or old Selitas in place of the gen movements we paid for.

So in summary: Selita or clone. ETA only if confirmed before purchase.

Thanks, Ale, for starting this thread!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wat44]

that is my thinking, too

 

[Q5?]

I have not bought from a TD in over a year (I did buy a J12 from T4D for my wiff, so that doesn't count )

I never chose ETA before though. Always the Asian clone or 21j. I picked the 21j if I was just trying the watch out or Asian clone if I knew that I wanted to keep it.

I can't wait for one of my Asian clone movements to fail, so I can buy a Gen ETA to replace it.

My UPO, PO and SD all are still working great for the last 2 years!

 

[KBH]

There are so many differences that are easily noticed between the ETA 2824 and the Selitta SW200, including 26 jewels, that it would be a lot more complicated than just stamping an ETA clone differently. Do you guys really think they are going to make a whole other clone movement just to stamp it SW200 which a a cheaper movement than the ETA anyway?

Until somebody shows me one, I'll remain very skeptical.

 

[Pix]

A real, serious and complete comparison between the ETA 2824 and its clones from Seagull and Hangzhou

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/how-do-seagull-hangzhou-compare-eta-depth-look-216945.html

Although the Seagull usually looks very nice thanks to the pearlage/cote de Geneve, it's the "worst" of all.

Now, what do we have in our reps ?
I believe that all silver ones are nothing but the Seagull clone, which you can buy for half the price of the ETA. (I bought one on ebay for 60 USD)

Take the Hangzhou, make it brass colour instead of steel, you may obtain what we believe to be the gen ETA...

2 easy ways to differenciate :
- as soon as the ETA stampings are not as sharp, regular and thin as what we see in this comparison, it's just not gen. No need to count how many holes or the shape of the shock absorber.

- an other easy way, the balance wheel

Now open you watch and realize we've been told tales for long :cute:

 

[coop]

Do you guys really think they are going to make a whole other clone movement just to stamp it SW200 which is a cheaper movement than the ETA anyway?

Yes I do. We didnt think they would clone eta movements way back when, and they did, and have been for longer then we know. I dont think they will stamp SW200 on a lower quality eta clone, but I do think they will(and maybe have) clone a Sellita.

 

[KBH]

I don't know what ETA that balance wheel came out of but it doesn't look like any ETA I've ever seen, and I have them from several older gens, two 2893-2 GMT movements, and brand new packaged (not from reps or rep dealers) 28xx-2 and they don't look like than one.

Here's the only picture handy and this one was Serviced by Rex and he confirmed it Swiss. Also seeing the 2834-2 stamps makes it very unlikely that it would be a clone.

Yes I do. We didnt think they would clone eta movements way back when, and they did, and have been for longer then we know. I dont think they will stamp SW200 on a lower quality eta clone, but I do think they will(and maybe have) clone a Sellita.

Cloning an ETA is what the Chinese factories did. That's a known fact. They did it because the movements were off patent and the old ETA machinery was available. What we're talking about, at least I believe, is stamping a counterfeit trademark on it. Why go to all the expense to make another different movement that's basically the same thing just to put a counterfeit stamp on it. Sure, I guess it's possible that one of the watch factories currently without a clone movement could just as well copy a SW200 but I'm quite sure there would be news that it was available to the general legitimate watch marketplace.

I think people here are forgetting that these movements are made by legitimate factories and the start up cost for making movements is huge. It's always easy to buy the blank ebauches and stamp or modify them to suit your purpose but not so easy to build a new movement.

Still very skeptical.

As from the movie: "SHOW ME THE MONEY!"

Until I see it I just don't believe it.

 

[Pix]

What's the advantage of cloning the Sellita, as in real life it's neither better nor more expensive than the ETA, right ?

 

[avenger007]

The extra jewel gives it a little better power reserve than the ETA, but ETA still has the name cachet which is more valuable to our Chinese friends. I will never say never, but i can't see why cloning the Sellita would be a good business decision.

 

[Pix]

It seems the Seagull and Hangzhou clones would have 28 jewels, according to the above review.

 

[KBH]

What's the advantage of cloning the Sellita, as in real life it's neither better nor more expensive than the ETA, right ?

Exactly!

 

[ALE7575]

@levelmanroger
+1
Hi levelmanroger
IMHO, very sound comments and advices
I agree with you

@Q5?

Hi Q
Many thanks for your interesting contribution
I hope you will continue in contact to this thread
ALE

@KBH
@Pix
@coop
@avenger

Thanks all for take your time in this thread
Good discussion started
ALE

 

[levelmanroger]

I'm sure they will eventually clone the Selita, but for now it seems they have not.
And for the price difference it may not be as attractive to clone as the ETA.
Plus, they'll keep making the ETA clones and selling them as gen Swiss movements to the un-washed masses.
So for the foreseeable future, the Selita movement should be a very good choice.

And, IMO based on both experience and observation on the forums, the clone 28XX movements are arguably as reliable and accurate as the "Swiss" ETA movements you'll find in reps.

So I'd still opt for Selita or clone.

 

[Pix]

I like the finish of the Seagull, it makes the whole thing elegant.

 

[Wiz]

the clone 28XX movements are arguably as reliable and accurate as the "Swiss" ETA movements you'll find in reps.

I can assure you this is not true, and I bet that anyone who worked on reps with both types of movements will tell you the same.

 

[Pix]

There are already differences between the 4 genuine ETA grades, so the clones can't be as good. It doesn't mean they're bad, but good enough. The choice of the alloy, of the shock absorber and many other parts will eventually make a big difference. I'm not a watchsmith, but the specs of each movement are enough to show there is a real difference.

 

[rooster133]

Very interesting thread. I'm no expert on movements and have a tendency to upgrade good keepers to the Swiss equivalent as soon as possible. But I must say, the only movements that I have ever found problematic are those with the CHS modification in any incarnation, and poorly done secs at 6 mods. If I recall correctly, I have never had any other rep movement fail on me. The most common rep movement in my collection is the A7750, of which I have quite a few (I'm a chrono kind of guy). That one has proven to be a work horse as well. Overall, I probably don't see a convincing reason to buy a so-called Swiss ETA from a dealer. I'd rather get a clone and then upgrade if necessary.

 

[Wiz]

There are already differences between the 4 genuine ETA grades, so the clones can't be as good. It doesn't mean they're bad, but good enough. The choice of the alloy, of the shock absorber and many other parts will eventually make a big difference. I'm not a watchsmith, but the specs of each movement are enough to show there is a real difference.

I can confirm they're not as good.

The materials used are not as good, the parts are not as precise (is that the correct word?), the assembly is not as good, the oiling is not as good, and most of the time it's dirty.

That said, I suspect there are various gardes of clones, maybe even various makers, because I've seen clone that were not any better than the average 21j, and others that were quite ok.