seanf and Time4Direct
I don't disagree with either or you. If I were in your shoes I would feel as you do. But I am not and we are talking about two different things. I am just expressing an opinion and relating my personal experiences. I have ordered many 21J from many dealers (including "noob factory" watches from Time4Diirect) and my personal experience with them is that my real world total cost delivered to my door runs $100 to $150 and there has been a significant failure rate within the first year (with the movement and other parts). Once I have a failed watch it is no good to me at all (and an embarrassment if I have given it to someone else as a gift) because I cannot personally swap out the movement and don't have a watchsmith here to do it for me. So "fixing" that watch involves the hassle of finding someone elsewhere, mailing and waiting. All stuff I wouid rather not do. See the thread I started on the noobmariner and other people's experience with the 21J in those watches. So I am in the position of trying to purchase the best quality and reliability I can find from the start. You aren't in the same position as me; you have other options which make more sense to you. That is all fine. It isn't a matter of justifying the cost for a service on a 21J as people are arguing. It is a matter of what it is worth to me personally to obtain a 21J that I can rely upon. I expressed the opinion, it would be worth $200 USD to me to be able to purchase a watch with a 21J movement that was 100% reliable. People are extrapolating from that figure to compute an expensive service of a low cost movement. That is not what I said. I never at any time said someone should purchase the cheapest 21J they can find on the internet and then pay someone $100 to service the movement. Never said that and never would say that. Also, I never said Fakemaster charges $200 for his watches; he doesn't. People have misunderstood my comment and are reacting to something I never said. I just said that $200 is what I would be willing to pay someone I trusted to consistently deliver a quality product, whether if it is 21J, quartz,. etc. Another consideration for me is that I give many watches away to friends and clients and business associates. I don't want to give them something that has a high chance of failing within a year. That reliability is more important to me than it is to you because you can fix anything that goes wrong. I cannot. I have to give a gift which has a very high chance of not needing to be fixed for many years. I have found the noobmariner simply too risky to present as gifts no matter which dealer was the middleman and no matter how much they claimed to have quality controlled the watch before they shipped it to me. In my experience all of the $60 to $100 or so watches on the internet actually cost me 50% to 100% more by the time I get them to my house. So I really have to spend $100 to $150 by the time I get that Asian assembled 21J to my door and even then I have found too many quality issues (which I lack the skill to fix) for me to feel comfortable relying on such a watch as a fun gift to a business associate. I find only fakemaster has been able to consistently deliver a quality product I can count on to be running a year later (and I am sure there is some failure rate with his builds also, just a much lower one in my experience). Thus, his product justifies a premium price to me. That is my personal opinion and personal experience. Now, in that context, does my comment regarding being willing to spend $200 for a 21J make more sense to you? I really don't think I am being irrational or crazy or spreading misinformation. At least I sure don't intend any of those. But I may be wrong. We all can be wrong. That is why forums like RWI are helpful.
I never discussed what an Asian ETA clone or what a Swiss Made ETA or the new SW200 would be worth to me: total cost delivered to my door in Pennsylvania, US. . I have some Asian ETAs and some Swiss ETAs. No problems with them so far but my numbers are too limited to trust statistically and the time I have had them is to short to yet judge. I just don't know the failure rate on Asian ETA clones, Swiss ETAs or the new SW200.
It would be helpful to all of us if RWI had some sort of data bank or poll where we could input the failure rate of various movements (maybe even the failure rate from various dealers) and then we may be able to generate enough statistical power to determine whether or not a certain watch is "bullet proof" or not. We read those terms in anecdotal comments and we each have personal experiences to draw upon but none of us have enough data to have real "statistical significance" to my knowledge. Does this post make more sense to you?