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Introduction
Hello my friends,
Today I will share with you my thoughts on the specific quality of all currently available 36mm Datejust and Daydate Replicas, compare them to the (vintage) Bulova Seville Homage (available as Datejust or Daydate) and conclude why I would choose one over another. This also includes all available franken options that use 5-digit replica parts such as from rafflesdials.com, silix 5-digit replicas, trustytime 6-digit replicas, or even single spare parts such as the rhodium/gold-coated fluted bezels.
Homage Watches?
I don't want to get too technical about this but homage watches are typically made by unrelated companies with design elements derived from other (usually more expensive) watch manufacturers such as the extremely iconic Submariner from Rolex. There are many examples of homage-manufacturers like the watches from Steinhart and Parnis.
I want to differenciate between two classes of homages, which many people fail to do and thus tend to over-generalize on the quality one would expect from these kind of watches.
1. White-label or "sterile" homages, which are mostly china-made from companies such as Alpha, Parnis and Bagelsport. It is highly probably they are sourcing their (low-cost and quality) parts from similiar sources as the replica manufacturers since these are nearly a "1 to 1" copy of these famous designs, the main difference being the logos and names. These are a very affordable option to try out your favorite watch design but their build quality is exactly like the price you pay for it, cheap! This includes the movements. Even though they try to be a exact copy there are many flaws as the endlinks on the alpha daydate for example. Many of them come broken to begin with.
2. "Mid-level" (this could be another debate) Manufacturers with few selected homage watches in their line-up such as Orient, Citizen, Seiko or Bulova. These are companies that produce or have produced many independent watch designs but due to a multitude of reasons decided to produce homage watches at one point in their history. These designs tend to be just a little more independent in their nature, as they may share major design elements but have many minor differences especially concerning the case, movement (some quartz or low-beat) and endlinks.
(3. Independent companies that are specialized on mainly building high-quality homage watches such as Steinhart, not relevant in our discussion)
The Datejust and Daydate watches are extremely popular in the asian world one of the reasons being that many asian men simply have smaller wrists than in other parts of the world. This largely explains why there are so many Datejust/Daydate inspired homages from asian companies such as Seiko, Citizen or Orient.
Bulova is a special case because it (used to be before citizen bought it) a major american watchmaker with a large history and independent designs, mainly known for its tuning-fork movements (the Accutron series) which was recently re-introduced to the public in form of the Bulova Moonwatch, although I think the current edition doesn't use a tuning-fork movement.
Starting in approximately 1979 Bulova started a series called the Bulova Super Seville, which closely resembles the Daydate and Datejust watches from Rolex. Sharing many similarites they look very close in appearance but have many minor differences which I will highlight in the next section. It is highly likely that these were made specifically for the asian and middle-eastern market as you see most of the used ones pop up in those parts of the world (korea, japan and philipines especially) but they were also sold in Germany in the 80's and 90's albeit definitely not as available as in the asian countries. Production has stopped altogether during some point in the mid 90's (judging from the serial numbers) and these are only available as used or vintage watches. These were sold for a price around 1,000 USD, many of them featuring "swiss made" writing on the dial.
Bulova Super Seville
Now many of you will probably think the Orient daydate (no datejust!) homage is the best one judging from the pictures I have posted above. Wrong! The orient uses a low-beat (inhouse orient) 21j movement, cyclops magnification is weak (mineral crystal), the gold is only electroplated and the bracelet only uses folded links instead of massive ones. Also they were only available for about a year before rolex cracked down on them thats why you can rarely find any on the used market at all.
This leads me back to the Bulova Seville as these were available for nearly two decades. Features of the Bulova Seville:
As you can see the caseshape, crystal, clasp, endlinks, lugs and caseback have a slightly difference appearance than the original. The bulova does have some differenciating design elements.
Replica options available for the 36mm Daydate and Datejust
One of the first questions I asked on this forum is how do the replica counterparts of the Bulova Seville compare and I got no answer unfortunately. Now that some time has passed I learned from experience I thought I would share the answer with you. So what options are available at all?
As we learned from my last thread if you want to get a 5-digit Datejust or Daydate, besides Silix or parts from rafflesdials.com (which frankenbuilders base their 5-digit builds on) you don't have any options at all. There used to be twbest/wm9 (same thing) 5-Digit Datejusts and Daydates but these are extremely rare and not in production since years. (I managed to get a 18239 twbest but this will be covered in another thread)
While the Silix Datejust does have a favorable review it is still apparent that the fluted bezel is no where near genuine such as is the case with the raffles counterpart.
What about 6-digit Datejusts or Daydates?
There are two main options available: Trustytime (unknown maker/factory), which many frankenbuilders base their builds on or a BP Factory Datejust (v2) or Daydate.
While the BP Factory built Daydate and Datejust is superior in overall accuracy and quality to its trustytime counterpart, the fluted bezel is still way off from gen and is not rhodium coated from stock.
It should be noted that the genuine 5-digit fluted bezels are different in form in function from the 6-digit bezels (but daydate and datejust use the same in both cases).
The spare rhodium or goldcoated fluted bezels many builders use on both 5 and 6 digit builds to improve upon the mediocre quality of the rep bezel are also not comparable to genuine as can be seen here.
Rhodium Coated mounted on rafflescase (frankenbuild 18039)
The fluted bezel is for me one of the biggest flaws of any replica daydate as even inexperienced people will be able to tell the difference immediately had they have seen a genuine datejust or daydate before.
Conclusion
While the Bulova Super Seville may not be perfect in every aspect (uses minera xtal + folded endlinks), as an (previous) owner of 5 Bulova Super Sevilles (including one goldwrapped one) it is classes above in quality to ANY replica option there is available currently and this is not just do to the fluted bezel or dial. The overall finishing quality, look and feel of bracelet is not comparable to any replica daydate/datejust. I would recommend installing a clarks or sternkreuz crystal as soon as you get one of these because most have a mineral crystal installed (which is fine too because it reflects less than sapphire, use it until its scratched). These are not going to be an exact replica of any Daydate reference but the overall quality is closer to a genuine Tudor Daydate than it is to any 36mm replica daydate available on the market currently.
Personally I have only owned a bp daydate and a trustytime daydate to compare it with but sold these rather quickly again.
In the last years the Bulova Seville has seen an increase in its average used prices but you are still able to get them at around averagely 500 USD. There are rare indeed but not as rare as many of you assume, you have to look on the korean and japanese ebay and you will see many pop up almost every week. Most of them are refinished which is perfectly fine for watches from the 80's or 90's and attests to their longevity (atleast the steel models).
They are still a very good value because they offer a genuine swiss ETA which, despite its age, will be superior to any asian eta movement. Condition is the key to getting one of these but if you follow certain sellers (the one who refinish them) you will get a serviced movement anyway. I would not recommend a certain american seller as he overinflates his prices but the korean and japanese ones definitely are closer to market value.
I would NOT recommend the golden models because the wrapped gold (read my experience here) has a tendency to rub off quite easily.
If you can't live with the name of Bulova on your dial, frankening these watches may be an option too as can be seen here (be sure to read my comment in the thread to understand differences to gen in that case).
Hello my friends,
Today I will share with you my thoughts on the specific quality of all currently available 36mm Datejust and Daydate Replicas, compare them to the (vintage) Bulova Seville Homage (available as Datejust or Daydate) and conclude why I would choose one over another. This also includes all available franken options that use 5-digit replica parts such as from rafflesdials.com, silix 5-digit replicas, trustytime 6-digit replicas, or even single spare parts such as the rhodium/gold-coated fluted bezels.
Homage Watches?
I don't want to get too technical about this but homage watches are typically made by unrelated companies with design elements derived from other (usually more expensive) watch manufacturers such as the extremely iconic Submariner from Rolex. There are many examples of homage-manufacturers like the watches from Steinhart and Parnis.
I want to differenciate between two classes of homages, which many people fail to do and thus tend to over-generalize on the quality one would expect from these kind of watches.
1. White-label or "sterile" homages, which are mostly china-made from companies such as Alpha, Parnis and Bagelsport. It is highly probably they are sourcing their (low-cost and quality) parts from similiar sources as the replica manufacturers since these are nearly a "1 to 1" copy of these famous designs, the main difference being the logos and names. These are a very affordable option to try out your favorite watch design but their build quality is exactly like the price you pay for it, cheap! This includes the movements. Even though they try to be a exact copy there are many flaws as the endlinks on the alpha daydate for example. Many of them come broken to begin with.
Seiko
Citizen
Orient
Citizen
Orient
The Datejust and Daydate watches are extremely popular in the asian world one of the reasons being that many asian men simply have smaller wrists than in other parts of the world. This largely explains why there are so many Datejust/Daydate inspired homages from asian companies such as Seiko, Citizen or Orient.
Bulova is a special case because it (used to be before citizen bought it) a major american watchmaker with a large history and independent designs, mainly known for its tuning-fork movements (the Accutron series) which was recently re-introduced to the public in form of the Bulova Moonwatch, although I think the current edition doesn't use a tuning-fork movement.
Starting in approximately 1979 Bulova started a series called the Bulova Super Seville, which closely resembles the Daydate and Datejust watches from Rolex. Sharing many similarites they look very close in appearance but have many minor differences which I will highlight in the next section. It is highly likely that these were made specifically for the asian and middle-eastern market as you see most of the used ones pop up in those parts of the world (korea, japan and philipines especially) but they were also sold in Germany in the 80's and 90's albeit definitely not as available as in the asian countries. Production has stopped altogether during some point in the mid 90's (judging from the serial numbers) and these are only available as used or vintage watches. These were sold for a price around 1,000 USD, many of them featuring "swiss made" writing on the dial.
Bulova Super Seville
Now many of you will probably think the Orient daydate (no datejust!) homage is the best one judging from the pictures I have posted above. Wrong! The orient uses a low-beat (inhouse orient) 21j movement, cyclops magnification is weak (mineral crystal), the gold is only electroplated and the bracelet only uses folded links instead of massive ones. Also they were only available for about a year before rolex cracked down on them thats why you can rarely find any on the used market at all.
This leads me back to the Bulova Seville as these were available for nearly two decades. Features of the Bulova Seville:
- Has both Datejust and Daydate models available
- Available in wrapped gold, two-tone or massive steel
- Case is build alot more massive than the original rolex daydate (wears bigger!)
- The Bracelet links are massive steel but the endlinks are folded steel
- Feature either a 2834-1 17 jewels or 25 jewels high-beat swiss ETA movement (depending on age)
- Either have a mineral or acrylic crystal (depending on age)
- Feature rhodiumcoated indices and fluted bezels (similiar dimensions as gen) on the steel models
- Dial finishing and printing quality is excellent (many of them with "swiss made" printing)
- A very large variation of dial combinations were available (from sunray blue to a matte dark grey)
- Dial has the same diameter as a genuine Rolex Dial (Daywindowcutout is ETA based like Tudor)
- Accepts rolex parts such as the crown, bezel, dial (with mod of the mov. ring) and crystal
- Increase in value over time (atleast in the few last years)
As you can see the caseshape, crystal, clasp, endlinks, lugs and caseback have a slightly difference appearance than the original. The bulova does have some differenciating design elements.
Replica options available for the 36mm Daydate and Datejust
One of the first questions I asked on this forum is how do the replica counterparts of the Bulova Seville compare and I got no answer unfortunately. Now that some time has passed I learned from experience I thought I would share the answer with you. So what options are available at all?
As we learned from my last thread if you want to get a 5-digit Datejust or Daydate, besides Silix or parts from rafflesdials.com (which frankenbuilders base their 5-digit builds on) you don't have any options at all. There used to be twbest/wm9 (same thing) 5-Digit Datejusts and Daydates but these are extremely rare and not in production since years. (I managed to get a 18239 twbest but this will be covered in another thread)
While the Silix Datejust does have a favorable review it is still apparent that the fluted bezel is no where near genuine such as is the case with the raffles counterpart.
What about 6-digit Datejusts or Daydates?
There are two main options available: Trustytime (unknown maker/factory), which many frankenbuilders base their builds on or a BP Factory Datejust (v2) or Daydate.
While the BP Factory built Daydate and Datejust is superior in overall accuracy and quality to its trustytime counterpart, the fluted bezel is still way off from gen and is not rhodium coated from stock.
It should be noted that the genuine 5-digit fluted bezels are different in form in function from the 6-digit bezels (but daydate and datejust use the same in both cases).
The spare rhodium or goldcoated fluted bezels many builders use on both 5 and 6 digit builds to improve upon the mediocre quality of the rep bezel are also not comparable to genuine as can be seen here.
Rhodium Coated mounted on rafflescase (frankenbuild 18039)
The fluted bezel is for me one of the biggest flaws of any replica daydate as even inexperienced people will be able to tell the difference immediately had they have seen a genuine datejust or daydate before.
Conclusion
While the Bulova Super Seville may not be perfect in every aspect (uses minera xtal + folded endlinks), as an (previous) owner of 5 Bulova Super Sevilles (including one goldwrapped one) it is classes above in quality to ANY replica option there is available currently and this is not just do to the fluted bezel or dial. The overall finishing quality, look and feel of bracelet is not comparable to any replica daydate/datejust. I would recommend installing a clarks or sternkreuz crystal as soon as you get one of these because most have a mineral crystal installed (which is fine too because it reflects less than sapphire, use it until its scratched). These are not going to be an exact replica of any Daydate reference but the overall quality is closer to a genuine Tudor Daydate than it is to any 36mm replica daydate available on the market currently.
Personally I have only owned a bp daydate and a trustytime daydate to compare it with but sold these rather quickly again.
In the last years the Bulova Seville has seen an increase in its average used prices but you are still able to get them at around averagely 500 USD. There are rare indeed but not as rare as many of you assume, you have to look on the korean and japanese ebay and you will see many pop up almost every week. Most of them are refinished which is perfectly fine for watches from the 80's or 90's and attests to their longevity (atleast the steel models).
They are still a very good value because they offer a genuine swiss ETA which, despite its age, will be superior to any asian eta movement. Condition is the key to getting one of these but if you follow certain sellers (the one who refinish them) you will get a serviced movement anyway. I would not recommend a certain american seller as he overinflates his prices but the korean and japanese ones definitely are closer to market value.
I would NOT recommend the golden models because the wrapped gold (read my experience here) has a tendency to rub off quite easily.
If you can't live with the name of Bulova on your dial, frankening these watches may be an option too as can be seen here (be sure to read my comment in the thread to understand differences to gen in that case).
