How much is TOO much? Reps vs Gens

[Valencia]

IMO pay more than 400 usd is not justified if you really appreciate an automatic watch. I mean for that price you can buy a Gen watch like Hamilton, Tissot or Oris which are going to work perfectly, which assure you a good finished quality and materials. What we are paying, like in the real life, is the brand. TDs have learnt that some people is willing to pay almost the double, compared with other brands, just to have a Rolex in their wrist. The proof is factories never realese a 1:1 but several versions. They know their watch is not a 1:1 rep and it will not in the next version, but people will buy a new watch just because it has a little improvement
I think we should be less exigent in some small details and focus on the really important, its movement

 

[Rufctr2]

IMO pay more than 400 usd is not justified if you really appreciate an automatic watch. I mean for that price you can buy a Gen watch like Hamilton, Tissot or Oris which are going to work perfectly, which assure you a good finished quality and materials. What we are paying, like in the real life, is the brand. TDs have learnt that some people is willing to pay almost the double, compared with other brands, just to have a Rolex in their wrist. The proof is factories never realese a 1:1 but several versions. They know their watch is not a 1:1 rep and it will not in the next version, but people will buy a new watch just because it has a little improvement
I think we should be less exigent in some small details and focus on the really important, its movement

The Noob Daytona cost 690+ but the movement is awesome. In this case i dont think the price is too expensive.

 

[Babula]

Everyone want rolex and natural prices go up. Even for reps. I bet 70% of all reps sold is a sub

 

[Nanook65]

Everyone want rolex and natural prices go up. Even for reps. I bet 70% of all reps sold is a sub

I don't think 70%, but the % is high for sure. A while back I was wondering this same thing and I went back through the FS posts in m2m sales for maybe 2 weeks or something and counted all Rolex sales vs all non Rolex sales and it was approximately 50/50...

I think that for everyone the answer is going to be somewhat different as the answer is going to have a lot to do with how much value you place on having "Rolex" logo on the dial or "Audemars Piguet" or whatever. For some that is really all they care about & for others that is much less important.

It doesn't apply as much to higher priced gens, but here is one that I feel is a good example of what I am talking about though. Here is a link to WUS m2m where right now I am sure you could buy a pre-owned 41mm version of the Longines Hydroconquest for probably $550: https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/fsot-longines-hydroconquest.5248148/#post-52546468 That same watch retails for $1275, but you could also get it here on Jomashop (grey market) for $895: https://www.jomashop.com/longines-w...m=organic&utm_campaign=surfaces-across-google or yet another option is getting it through one of the TD's (Replica of course) for roughly $278 + shipping & fees it is probably $325 when all is done. Here it is on Trusty Time: https://trustytime.io/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=134&products_id=19646

So to sum it up you have:
Gen through AD = $1275 + Tax $90 = $1365
Gen through Gray market = $895 =$65 =$960
Gen pre-owned, but close to LNIB = $550
Rep through TD =$325

For me, I like to try a lot of different watches. I'll buy and wear a few times and 9 out of 10 times I wind up selling the watch within somewhere between a few days to a few months or maybe a year or so. For this reason I do not buy very many gen watches brand new as they just take too big a hit for me. I am happy to buy a nice condition pre-owned Gen though as it has already taken the depreciation hit and I know I will be able to sell it if I want without much of a loss. With reps it is a bit different as I have found that I can buy new or pre-owned here and either way I am not going lose more than maybe $75. To me, I can buy and sell to my hearts content and if I lose $75 I am fine with that.

As for my example above:
To me this is a slam dunk no brainer. I buy the pre-owned Gen $100% of the time if I am after this particular watch. The risk of the rep-movement crapping out and me having to spend $150 or something to fix it and the fact that I am actually getting a Gen vs a Rep makes this a clear cut winner for not very much additional cost.

Now I realize there are a lot of watches out there where it is not so clear cut & as the price of the Gen goes up more and more it makes more sense to pay even more for the rep. I guess I am not that into the name on the dial and I am not into trying to impress people with wearing a 10k or 20k or more watch so for me that breakpoint is lower than it would be for some others. For any Gen that Retails for $1500 or less current Rep prices of decent Reps dictate that I just buy the Gen (probably pre-owned) I have been limiting myself to watches where the Gens retail in the $1,500-5k price. For those, at the lower end I probably wouldn't pay more than $300 for a Rep and at the higher end maybe $500 or so would be my breakpoint.

 

[madcatlancelot]

This is an endless discussion and no one can give you a correct answer. There is no correct answer as to which prices are justified etc.

Another scenario.

Let's say rep prices go down to $300 and you have 5 in your collection. Aside from payment fees and shipping costs, the overall cost is $1500. For that money you can get a nice gen pre-owned or even new from a reputable brand. So the rep price is relatively cheap but they add up.

Same can be said about gens. Let's say you have 5 entry level gens like Tissot for $500 a piece. That's $2500 in total and for that you could buy a more premium gen. Some prefer having the 5 Tissots others sell them all and buy 1 Tudor, Breitling etc for the same price.

So only you can answer your question. Good luck.

This ^^^

Totally agree that there's no right or wrong thoughts about this topic, it will vary from person to person. Some will be happy with their Noob PAM111 which is as accurate as a rep can be, and can be had for less than $300. Some will lust after the latest and greatest AP rep which can cost $800 upwards.

And eventhough a person had a barrier of purchasing reps priced more than $300, eventually that person might end up with 2 watch boxes of cheap reps that will total to around $5K.

Afterwards, that person might think, "damn, i spent $5k on reps, I might as well have bought a gen Tudor Pelagos or Black bay. But I'm happy with my reps, I'll just save again to buy that Tudor".

 

[Gsingh]

I would say one good watch about 2k max , and if you want another it should be a base $500 watch or less

 

[Nanook65]

I would say one good watch about 2k max , and if you want another it should be a base $500 watch or less

I think you are sort of missing the point. I wasn't asking what the max I would pay for a watch in the OP. I was asking if reps keep increasing in price at what point do you just buy the Gen of the same watch or just skip buying the Rep and put the money into a different Gen? So unless you are saying you would be willing to pay up to 2k for a Rep Rolex Sub (for example) and not more then that is your breaking point. Hey, maybe there are some that would pay 5k or 7k for a Rep Rolex. I have no idea. Not me, as I stated above my break point is probably about $500 or so. I am not likely (at least right now) to pay more than $500 for a rep no matter what it is. I am, however, willing to spend probably up to around 2k on a nice pre-owned gen.

Everyone is going to be different, but I will give another example. One of my favorite Reps is my VSF 2018 Omega Seamaster SMP. By the time I paid for shipping and fees and all that the SMP cost me $400 which doesn't seem too bad for a really good rep of a Gen that goes for roughly $5,000 USD.

However....
Granted that some of this pain is my own fault but I bought a Zealande strap for it for $175 and a Rep strap from VSF for $88 and unfortunately mine crapped out so I sent it out for a repair and service. There were some parts that were replaced and a service with shipping cost me another $200 so now I have a total of $863 into the watch. I realize that I am not going to get a Gen Omega for $863 or even double that, but if instead of putting that much into 3 Reps maybe I get a pre-owned Omega 2254.50 or a Pre-Owned Sinn or something. In hindsight if I had known that I was going to put that much into this one I might re-think that and put that money into a portion of a gen.

Don't get me wrong....
I love reps and I love it that I get to try out a whole bunch more watches than I would if I was limiting myself to gens. After discovering Reps more than 13 years ago, I am still super glad I did. I guess for me rep pricing is approaching an area where I am starting to re-think the wisdom of reps and certainly if reps continue to escalate in price as they have in recent years I will continue to feel more and more that way.

 

[Gsingh]

I think you are sort of missing the point. I wasn't asking what the max I would pay for a watch in the OP. I was asking if reps keep increasing in price at what point do you just buy the Gen of the same watch or just skip buying the Rep and put the money into a different Gen? So unless you are saying you would be willing to pay up to 2k for a Rep Rolex Sub (for example) and not more then that is your breaking point. Hey, maybe there are some that would pay 5k or 7k for a Rep Rolex. I have no idea. Not me, as I stated above my break point is probably about $500 or so. I am not likely (at least right now) to pay more than $500 for a rep no matter what it is. I am, however, willing to spend probably up to around 2k on a nice pre-owned gen.

Everyone is going to be different, but I will give another example. One of my favorite Reps is my VSF 2018 Omega Seamaster SMP. By the time I paid for shipping and fees and all that the SMP cost me $400 which doesn't seem too bad for a really good rep of a Gen that goes for roughly $5,000 USD.

However....
Granted that some of this pain is my own fault but I bought a Zealande strap for it for $175 and a Rep strap from VSF for $88 and unfortunately mine crapped out so I sent it out for a repair and service. There were some parts that were replaced and a service with shipping cost me another $200 so now I have a total of $863 into the watch. I realize that I am not going to get a Gen Omega for $863 or even double that, but if instead of putting that much into 3 Reps maybe I get a pre-owned Omega 2254.50 or a Pre-Owned Sinn or something. In hindsight if I had known that I was going to put that much into this one I might re-think that and put that money into a portion of a gen.

Don't get me wrong....
I love reps and I love it that I get to try out a whole bunch more watches than I would if I was limiting myself to gens. After discovering Reps more than 13 years ago, I am still super glad I did. I guess for me rep pricing is approaching an area where I am starting to re-think the wisdom of reps and certainly if reps continue to escalate in price as they have in recent years I will continue to feel more and more that way.

makes perfectly sense what you're trying to say. But there are people who rather wear a 2k rep Rolex Daytona rather than a 2k GEN Rolex 1970''s Oyster Perpetual. There is no right or wrong answer here. I think it's the budget vs model of the watch that requires a fine balance as to "exactly when is so much actually too much "

 

[Nanook65]

makes perfectly sense what you're trying to say. But there are people who rather wear a 2k rep Rolex Daytona rather than a 2k GEN Rolex 1970''s Oyster Perpetual. There is no right or wrong answer here. I think it's the budget vs model of the watch that requires a fine balance as to "exactly when is so much actually too much "

for sure. Very True

 

[Neil McCauley]

Hey guys,

there is a good answer to this thread.

Reps of high price Genuine watches like for example AP , Rolex, Patek etc what cost the good models of each brand over 10 thousand , you spend immediately a lot of money to fix your REP looking like it.

I learned that watches for under 10 thousand for example Omega, Panerai are easier to mod very genuine like than the high price models of the brands I said bevore.

You have to decide what watch is suitable to your Lifestyle. If you drive for example a Opel Corsa and live in 50qm flat having a Patek nautilus jumbo Rep ( genuine price used over 35.000) than something goes wrong. And genuine parts to mod this Rep cost more than your car then it’s ridiculous.

I bought one ARF V3 Hulk but when I saw the real comparison to the genuine one of my friend I feel bad to wear something like this. We all start with cheapies till we end someday on thousand euro Franken watches.


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[APjumbo]

I have no problem buying reps for $200-450. I also take into consideration what I can afford to lose if I get scammed or it gets seized.
Even buying a pre owned gen and sending a stranger $1500 has some risk to it. I have done it once or twice and its an uneasy feeling.
Buying and selling at around 300 is a lot less stressful. Which means I get to try a lot more pieces.

Buying reps also means I get to deal with people happy to fudge the numbers when shipping. A few gens I just got cost me a fair chunk just in duty/ taxes.

I keep wanting an Andrea Pirlo Sub, but even at the price they are on sale right now ($450?) is a bit steep/and or I don't want it badly enough.

If I only had three reps, I wouldn't mind spending $700 on each. If I eventually get a modded vintage piece, I won't mind spending $1200, just depends on how much I want it, how many others I need to sell to get it.
My more expensive reps I don't enjoy twice as much, or see twice the wrist time, $300 is a real sweet spot.

$1000 really is a breaking point, when you can start getting into some respectable gen brands.

 

[lynyoon]

Can you guys explain the difference between a2824 vs a2824 II?

 

[Nanook65]

Can you guys explain the difference between a2824 vs a2824 II?

There is an entire section here at RWI dedicated to explaining the different movements used in Rep. You should go there & spend some time reading about the various movements.

 

[p0pperini]

Can you guys explain the difference between a2824 vs a2824 II?

It always helps to check the title of the thread before posting.

 

[Nanook65]

It always helps to check the title of the thread before posting.

Some of the posts here, like the one you are referring to, sure do make you scratch your head....

 

[bocodoku]

To me, it doesn't make sense to spend over a $1000 for a rep. While I can understand the fun in modding something (and spending thousands to tinker and have fun with watchmaking), spending 1k to over 3k for a modded watch for the sake of having something as close to gen seems like madness to me -- or just an unhealthy obsession.

My first watch when I was 15 was a gen Longines as a gift; 15 years later, I purchased a gen. Rolex, being financially secure. Now, a couple of years later, I decided to get a few reps -- for the fun of having something that I probably would have never considered in gen. I'm at that stage of life where I do want some fun, but 15-30k for a gen watch is money I can (re)invest into business and perhaps get a 100% return within a year. No watch, gen or otherwise, can double their value in a year like that.

From an economic point of view $500 is very little. You can spend $500 for a good meal in a high-end restaurant (for 2 or more) or you can get a rep watch for that price -- in both case, you'd have had a few hours of fun (wearing your rep or eating) but that's it.

Which brings me to my view on reps, and my point: for some people, getting a rep would be a way to trick people into assuming they have bought a gen watch; maybe it can make the difference into getting a job position they wouldn't otherwise get, or having a romantic date with someone, etc. It's understandable and nothing bad and I totally agree.

But spending over a $1000 for a single rep, trying to be as gen-like as possible, goes beyond tricking others or having fun, it's starting to turn into an unhealthy obsession. This is the price a real watch-lover can get a very good genuine watch, with artistic, mechanical and/or historical value. $1000 is also the price a person can get a gen watch that can be a decent enough status symbol to allow for a successful job interview or date, without tricking others or yourself.

Since discovering the rep world a few months ago, I did learn a lot about watchmaking and watches in general and made me appreciate the gen I have, but also allowed me to experiment with something new, so I'm very thankful to RWI for the wealth of information here. I've received my first rep, a Patek 5711 and it made me realise that I really don't like it.

I'm not the kind of person who's going to an AD just to try without purchasing, dream or do window shopping, it's a pointless waste of time I choose to spend on other things, so reps allow me in a way to try new things, and get a better idea of what I like and what I would buy in the future. Since getting a rep Patek, I realised my goal for a Patek watch: Perpetual Calendar (Chronograph) but that's going to be quite a few years in the future! There's a long way to go before I would put that much of my money into a watch. As for reps, there's a JLC MUT and an AP RO on the way and I'm eager to try them out -- maybe I'll like then after wearing them for a day or two, maybe I'll hate them; maybe I'll get a gen JLC or not, we'll see.

 

[Gordo0220]

Personally $500-550 shipped is the high point for me and ideally it should be a good rep out of the box needing no maintenance for the first year. I'd be willing to pay $550-700 shipped for the same rep that has been properly serviced and water tested (with proof of both- these services may already be available from a TD but I don't see these advertised).

I also think it would be a lot easier for me to purchase multiple $500 reps if I knew someone local who I could trust to service them even if it costs me another $200.


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[CurioLeo]

The way I look at it, a rep isn't worth getting unless it genuinely allows to me to "try before I buy" the real deal. The only way that is going to happen is if the rep is close enough in look AND feel to the genuine version and unfortunately that means purchasing the top end reps which no longer leave any change from at least $400, often significantly more. I do sink some serious coin into frankening watches, if they are genuinely NWBIG, since I love too many watches to be able to afford all of them in gen - the proviso being that very, very few reps are truly NWBIG (even if the entire forum swears otherwise - looking at you AP Diver !!). It is not about fooling or tricking anybody else as I have plenty of high end gens to wear. I just don't see the point of dedicating wrist time to reps that aren't worthy of it. As you have mentioned, high end reps can be easily recycled M2M anyway so you may not be out of pocket that much - having said that, I am notoriously bad at moving on watches that I don't wear. Hmmmm…..speaking of which, maybe I should sell some stuff to fund the VSF Hulk on its way

 

[nipe]

My main problem is that even when you pay more than $300 you still end up with a watch that has a movement which could crap out any time on you. If/when that happens you're just fucked, specially with these clone movements. As soon as a watch is priced higher than $300, that shit needs to be reliable. Gen or rep.

Even the rep subs priced at $500-800 aren't even waterproof, what the fuck is up with that? I can buy a gen watch for $50 that will be waterproof to 200m. Rep factories can't even properly make a DIVERS watch that will be properly waterproof out of the factory?

The fact is, production costs aren't higher than when Noob were doing V6s versions. Each new Noob version adds another $50 on top but barely anything has changed, whatever they changed in the new version didn't affect the manufacturing cost. Well perhaps the addition of an unreliable clone movement.

 

[Nanook65]

My main problem is that even when you pay more than $300 you still end up with a watch that has a movement which could crap out any time on you. If/when that happens you're just fucked, specially with these clone movements. As soon as a watch is priced higher than $300, that shit needs to be reliable. Gen or rep.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you are kinda bitchin about reps....maybe you are, but
You have been around for a long time with lots of posts. I would think that by now you would know that you are not really paying for reliability when you are buying a rep. Still, for $300-$400 lots of both Gens and reps that will be reliable. If you are really worried about reliability in reps, buy only reps with either Gen Miyota or Seiko movements. Even the Asian ETA's I have had good luck with in the past 5 yrs & if something does go wrong they are easy to fix as lots of guys know their way around an ETA movement or you can always replace with a gen ETA.

Even the rep subs priced at $500-800 aren't even waterproof, what the fuck is up with that? I can buy a gen watch for $50 that will be waterproof to 200m. Rep factories can't even properly make a DIVERS watch that will be properly waterproof out of the factory?

This is something that I just don't understand why people get their undies in a bunch over. Get over it. A $50 Seiko or Citizen or Orient etc is made in a modern clean environment with most likely 100% automation. Reps are illegally made in an unsanitary environment put together by underpaid Chinese workers & they are mostly waterproof despite this. Go get the damn thing tested for $20 and be done with it, or buy/make yourself a tester and do it yourself for free. Why is it even an issue?

The fact is, production costs aren't higher than when Noob were doing V6s versions. Each new Noob version adds another $50 on top but barely anything has changed, whatever they changed in the new version didn't affect the manufacturing cost. Well perhaps the addition of an unreliable clone movement.

Now with this you have pointed out exactly what the purpose of the thread was in the first place. At some point all the $50 additions add up to real money and the rep is just so expensive that it hardly seems to make sense.

I guess the truth of it is that everyone has different motivations and opinions about this and I think it is interesting to hear a variety of opinions.