How much is TOO much? Reps vs Gens

[Nanook65]

I was casually glancing through the new offerings by some of the various go to Rep web sites that have the nice pics - You know the ones - TrustyTime, PureTime, InTime etc and I glanced at the following offering from Andrew and before I realized that I was looking at 2 watches for this price I thought to myself, "Now WTF, will Rep makers stop at no end in the increasing of prices on Reps?"

Now I realize that this is NOT a single 116610 for $886, but it got me thinking that this might be an interesting topic for my friends at RWI. Personally I think that a really nice rep of a 116610 is a lot more attractive @$400 than it is @ $1,000 for example. There are other watches where the difference is not so great and sometimes at some point I think that it just makes sense to just go ahead and buy the Gen. For example, Lets say you are after a Longines Hydroconquest or an Oris Diver 65. You can pick up a lightly worn Pre-Owned Gen for < $1000 and if Rep makers are charging $800 why would you ever buy the Rep? Now I am not suggesting that rep makers are currently charging $800 for those Reps, but you get the point.

The question I am posing is: At what point do you think it is no longer worth it to buy a rep?

Granted the answer might be different for different watches, but I am finding that quite a few reps are approaching the price where I am tempted to just buy either that Gen or a different Gen. I know that when you buy a micro brand or even a lesser known name brand watch (Not Rolex, Omega, Breitling, AP, PP etc) you are not getting the same feeling of Pride because you have a Rolex on your wrist, but honestly there has to be a point where you say this watch is really good and it is a Gen for $600 with a ETA movement, Sapphire Crystal, Ceramic Bezel insert, great lume,etc etc and I would rather buy that than a Rep Rolex Sub for $600, $800 $1,000, $1,500, $2,500 etc? Would people actually pay $5,000 for a Rep Rolex just because it is a Rolex and is that where we are going?

Your thoughts??

Here is pic of that listing that got me thinking about all this:

 

[Burbizia]

Interesting topic.

To me quality is involved too, and could move the "bar" by few hundreds.

these are my sentiments:
Up to 300$ I consider fair a great replica with few things missing. overall feeling of steel and details and movements should be flawless (otherwise better go on DWgate for 60-70$).
Up tp 500$ a replica should have 1-2 major flaws as acceptable, ut overall outstanding quality.
500-700€ a Flawless Replica.
Over it is pointless (to me at least). Maybe just for a Tourbillion.
I find hard to justify the 1200$ Richard Mille for Example

2-3500$ for a franken are acceptable, as long as everything but movment is basically gen-like

I just bought the 578$ Aquanaut and was a huge turn-off. it is silly that factory did not spend 10$ more for a decent strap and that the rotor is this noisy (basically un-usable without spending 90$ more).

also many models need 3-600€ modding (over 4-500$) and to be sent all around the world.

 

[MSC19]

It depends what are you looking for IMO.

If you want to buy a rep just for 'showing off' from the famous brands, then a max price should be about 600€, ok maybe 800€ if exotic materials are used. I do not know is there is a connection between price of the gen and how desirable is its rep, but it looks like expensive gens have expensive reps, not necessarily justified by its quality.

If you go to the franken way, then sky is the limit...like any other hobby

 

[YellowFin]

Glad you brought this up. I thought I'm the only one who's confused about reps of $1k Longines or Seven Friday watches.

In general, I feel some inner resistance to purchase reps above $500 (w/o shipping).

 

[Nanook65]

It depends what are you looking for IMO.
If you want to buy a rep just for 'showing off' from the famous brands, then a max price should be about 600€, ok maybe 800€ if exotic materials are used.

I can see a whole lot of different answers here, but I could see the Rep makers sort of conspiring to keep jacking prices and people just keep paying them. There is a long way to go with pricing of a lot of these high end gens .... even Rolex Yachtmaster, AP Royal Oak and the PP Aquanaut and Nautilus etc. I could see them jacking the pricing to $1000 and stupid people paying it...

............ it looks like expensive gens have expensive reps, not necessarily justified by its quality.......

So true

 

[rabl253]

In general, I feel some inner resistance to purchase reps above $500 (w/o shipping).

This is how I feel, but 200 dollars. And I think this has more to do with me than the market, 200 bucks is like, meh, play money. More than that I'm starting to weigh how many paychecks I'd need to save, emotional attachment to the spending....

and fact is, most "high end" "closest to gen" reps this point are around 400 bucks, or at least that's been my experience.

Frankly, good reps, not the dhgate crap, are too expensive for me to play around and not care. And that sucks. And maybe that's more a reflection of my personal financial situation, than the objective market.

The price of reps are too damn high *insert rent is too damn high meme here*

 

[Nanook65]

This is how I feel, but 200 dollars.......

Unfortunately @ $200 that leaves you mostly on the sidelines...

and fact is, most "high end" "closest to gen" reps this point are around 400 bucks, or at least that's been my experience.

I would say that you are right in the ballpark on that #. One way to justify this a little is to buy reps and sell the ones you don't care for. My experience tells me that if I buy just about any high end rep from a TD here and I don't wind up liking the watch I can then turn around and sell it and almost never lose more than $80 and usually it is less. If I give myself the luxury of spending $400/yr on watches that lets me try 5 + watches/yr that I sell on to the next guy.

Frankly, good reps, not the dhgate crap, are too expensive for me to play around and not care. And that sucks. And maybe that's more a reflection of my personal financial situation, than the objective market.

Try my method above and maybe you can "play around" a little more....

The price of reps are too damn high *insert rent is too damn high meme here*

Yea, I hear ya. While I agree that is everything including reps is too high. My question was more aimed at "at what point do you just skip the rep all together" and either go for the real deal or something else that is gen, but not the same brand, ie (maybe a bad example) but buy a Steinhart or Ginault or Monta or Squale or what ever instead of buying a Rolex Rep.

 

[rabl253]

One way to justify this a little is to buy reps and sell the ones you don't care for ... lets me try 5 + watches/yr that I sell on to the next guy.

... My question was more aimed at "at what point do you just skip the rep all together" and either go for the real deal or something else that is gen, but not the same brand, ie (maybe a bad example) but buy a Steinhart or Ginault or Monta or Squale or what ever instead of buying a Rolex Rep.

Yeah, I'm with you. There's definitely the flipper approach you described, though I'd point out there's a certain intangible mental/emotional cost associated with: worrying you're going to get stuck with something, anxiety over getting in trouble / customs seizing watches in transit, etc.

My point with the 200 bucks is, that's my personal play money point. Above that I'd rather save up for a gen, in the vast majority of cases. There are actually a fair amount of homages in that price range, like JOMW's beloved Pagani Design, etc

I think homages are lame, and good reps are expensive, which is why I own 0 reps or homages anymore. Still like lurking here, though, rep folks keep it real haha ^_^

I think $2000 is the absolute max I would pay for a rep, and it would have to literally be flawless, 1:1 clone movement, the works.

Once you start getting above the 1k USD mark, there are some pretty dope genuine watches from brands with heritage at that price. Think, Oris, Longines, Seiko, Hamilton, Citizen, etc.

Under 1k USD, I'm hard pressed to think of solid gen watches that are cool, that aren't quartz. Hamilton Khaki, Tissot powermatic, but even that stuff starts to creep up in price.

 

[Nanook65]

Yeah, I'm with you. There's definitely the flipper approach you described, though I'd point out there's a certain intangible mental/emotional cost associated with: worrying you're going to get stuck with something, anxiety over getting in trouble / customs seizing watches in transit, etc.

True, but I have bought dozens of watches from China TD's and have had exactly 1 seized by customs. It took a solid 2+ months to get sorted out, but in the end I was made whole by the TD. I have also bought dozens more from members here and on WUS and have only been burned once and it was here. Not all that big a deal and the guy was outed. I think he actually lost his job over it and I wound out probably $100 or so when everything was said and done.

I think homages are lame, and good reps are expensive, which is why I own 0 reps or homages anymore. Still like lurking here, though, rep folks keep it real haha ^_^

Totally agree on the homages. They just don't do it for me and not only that the re-sale on them is generally garbage.

I think $2000 is the absolute max I would pay for a rep, and it would have to literally be flawless, 1:1 clone movement, the works.

That is higher than I would think. I guess if it is really good and it is sort of a franken then this would probably make some sense

Once you start getting above the 1k USD mark, there are some pretty dope genuine watches from brands with heritage at that price. Think, Oris, Longines, Seiko, Hamilton, Citizen, etc.

For Sure

Under 1k USD, I'm hard pressed to think of solid gen watches that are cool, that aren't quartz. Hamilton Khaki, Tissot powermatic, but even that stuff starts to creep up in price.

Probably mostly pre-owned in here if it has any sort of heritage

 

[gindiesel]

I can view it the other way. I found the watch I wanted first. Then, I started looking at random (scam?) sites. 1500. Then, found one for 1200. Then, 800. THEN... I found this site. Did my homework. Found a TD. Their price was 688, same as the other TDs. Pulled the trigger. Do the TDs pay much less. Of course. Peace of mind, good communication... all have value.

 

[jttou]

This is an endless discussion and no one can give you a correct answer. There is no correct answer as to which prices are justified etc.

Another scenario.

Let's say rep prices go down to $300 and you have 5 in your collection. Aside from payment fees and shipping costs, the overall cost is $1500. For that money you can get a nice gen pre-owned or even new from a reputable brand. So the rep price is relatively cheap but they add up.

Same can be said about gens. Let's say you have 5 entry level gens like Tissot for $500 a piece. That's $2500 in total and for that you could buy a more premium gen. Some prefer having the 5 Tissots others sell them all and buy 1 Tudor, Breitling etc for the same price.

So only you can answer your question. Good luck.

 

[supe12sta12z]

I look at some of these VSF omegas and I’m am shocked at how high the quality of these watches are especially at the price point. And it leaves me dumbfounded by the prices of some of these Rolex models especially considering everyone and their mother’s factory are repping them. I’ve always assumed that pricing goes down with competition but that’s not quite the case.

 

[Nanook65]

I look at some of these VSF omegas and I’m am shocked at how high the quality of these watches are especially at the price point. And it leaves me dumbfounded by the prices of some of these Rolex models especially considering everyone and their mother’s factory are repping them. I’ve always assumed that pricing goes down with competition but that’s not quite the case.

I think that there is a really strange thing going on with Rolex. The rep factories all know that we are suckers for Rolex and people will basically pay anything to have a Rollie on their wrist. I guess if I was the factory and I found that there was no ceiling at which people stop buying then I would keep raising the prices too. Why not, right?

 

[speedomega]

I think that there is a really strange thing going on with Rolex. The rep factories all know that we are suckers for Rolex and people will basically pay anything to have a Rollie on their wrist. I guess if I was the factory and I found that there was no ceiling at which people stop buying then I would keep raising the prices too. Why not, right?

It's the exact same scenario as with the gen Rolex, just on a smaller scale.

 

[micksmith1987]

What drives me crazy is not the rep prices per se, but rather all the extra costs. In my case, I have to pay 65usd shipping fee, plus CC fees, or bank exchange rates, so even if I want a 370usd Omega rep i need to pay like 470. Not to mention that most reps require servicing, some mods and/or gen crystal to be 95% accurate. So long story short, the final price tag can easily be 800-900USD and for that kind of money, you can get a great automatic Certina diver. 3-4 reps and we are talking gen pre-owned Omega or even a new Tag... That's why I have no reps now...

 

[p0pperini]

What drives me crazy is not the rep prices per se, but rather all the extra costs. In my case, I have to pay 65usd shipping fee, plus CC fees, or bank exchange rates, so even if I want a 370usd Omega rep i need to pay like 470. Not to mention that most reps require servicing, some mods and/or gen crystal to be 95% accurate. So long story short, the final price tag can easily be 800-900USD

Shoulda bought M2M.

Also, I've shopped around to find the TDs who don't charge outrageous shipping - $30 isn't bad on top of the base cost, and is spread even thinner if you buy 2 or 3 watches at once. But I do understand that shipping costs may vary depending on your location. And I also have TDs who I can pay by direct transfer - at no or negligible additional cost.

Meanwhile, back on topic... I would draw the line at paying over a grand (GBP) for a stock rep. I realised this when that bloke off the Watchfinder videos said he paid a grand for the Noob Daytona rep. I thought, "What a mug. I wouldn't have bought mine if they'd wanted a grand for it." It feels to me that Noob are really reaching the upper end of what they can charge with their current pricing. And I felt it particularly keenly after my Noob Daytona died after a couple of days and cost another £160 to get fixed/serviced.

This personal break point is further reinforced by the knowledge that I can get Frankened versions of top flight watches and gens of decent lesser brands, once I pay over a grand.

 

[Nanook65]

What drives me crazy is not the rep prices per se, but rather all the extra costs. In my case, I have to pay 65usd shipping fee, plus CC fees, or bank exchange rates, so even if I want a 370usd Omega rep i need to pay like 470. Not to mention that most reps require servicing, some mods and/or gen crystal to be 95% accurate. So long story short, the final price tag can easily be 800-900USD and for that kind of money, you can get a great automatic Certina diver. 3-4 reps and we are talking gen pre-owned Omega or even a new Tag... That's why I have no reps now...

When I first read your post I thought the $800 price tag you are quoting is just not right, but after thinking about it for a bit your post sort of says exactly what my OP is getting at in the first place.....

At some point if rep makers just keep upping the price then eventually people, just like you have, stop buying reps. My OP was all about at what point does that happen. For you, what your post tells me, is that they are already there as you no longer have any reps

 

[BOSSK]

Too much is when it starts interfering with my other hobby - HiFi. If I have to start deciding between a new rep or a new MM/MC cartridge there will be trouble

 

[DiggerOfWatches]

So you're an audiophile BOSSK ? I used to be one in a former life. Kinda regret getting out of it. Have mates with awesome pieces of kit, valves etc. It really is cool to kick it with the tunes blasting through their set ups.


Sorry OP, slightly off topic...

 

[BOSSK]

So you're an audiophile BOSSK ? I used to be one in a former life. Kinda regret getting out of it. Have mates with awesome pieces of kit, valves etc. It really is cool to kick it with the tunes blasting through their set ups.


Sorry OP, slightly off topic...

I wouldn’t go so far as claiming to be an audiophile but I have a couple of nice systems and love my records. Building a system up is a great hobby, each component combination creates vastly different sound signatures, and if you get bored a new TT cart or even cable upgrade can make you fall in love all over again...

Spend a bit of time over at SNA, but RWI is by far my fave forum

Sorry, Off Topic indeed!