Panerai Pam438 (PAM 438) GMT Tuttonero Ceramica

[Treeboarus]

Hi All,

Been lurking for a long while, but this is my first time post...

I have been trawling the forums trying to glean enough information to make an informed decision on purchasing a rep PAM438 Tuttonero.

Finding the info was not so easy, and as I still have huge gaps in my knowledge of this, I thought I would make this post - In the hope that others can voulenteer the information I am missing, and hopefully this can then help anyone else who like me is looking to purchase the best Tuttonero rep they can.

So here's what I know:

There are multiple Factories & Versions that have been produced - some of these Factories are closely linked to each other, and therefore some of these may or may not be the same watch:

ZF:

• V1: Stainless steel with black DLC treatment (not as gen) / older (reliable) A7750 movement / 24 GMT (not 12 as gen) / balance wheel incorrectly positioned @11pm (not as gen) / silver movements (not as gen).
• V2: As above, in Ceramic

V6F:

• Ceramic / Older (reliable) A7750 movement / 24 GMT (not 12 as gen) / balance wheel incorrectly positioned @11pm (not as gen) / silver movements (not as gen).

KW:

• Ceramic / Super Clone P.9001/B movement (as gen) / all black movements (as gen) / position of balance wheel @7pm (as gen)

VSF(or VS Factory):

• V1: Ceramic / Super Clone P.9001/B movement (as gen) / correct 12hr GMT hand / correct position of escapement/balance wheel @7pm / improved black pivot
• V2: As V1, with all black movements

XF:

• V1: Maybe same as VS Factory
• V2: Maybe same as VS Factory

Potential upgrades:

• 2xAR crystal from Prof (@@rnrprof)

Based on what I know so far, my belief is that as of today the VSF V2 is still the best made and closest rep available.

Please feel free to correct me on any of the points above, the idea is to get a perfect buyers guide together on this watch

- Treeboarus

 

[Treeboarus]

Well for any one else as useless as me searching these forums, mysterio created the ultimate guide to all Panerais available, which dumps on my info above... here is the section on the PAM438

EVALUATION: (*) FIRST CLASS REP bordering lower status (ZFac version M-series , SS DLC coated w/decorated A7750 w/PR indicator)
EVALUATION: (*) FIRST CLASS REP medium level (KW-V6Fac O-series REAL CERAMIC, non inverted decorated KP9001/B-V2 w/PR indicator)
EVALUATION: (*) FIRST CLASS REP high level (KW-V6Fac O-series REAL CERAMIC, w/decorated Seagull NON-inverted KP9001/B-Seagull V2 w/PR indicator) with correct length of minute hand. The best option available from April 2015 together with ZFac w/ ZP9001/B-V2.5.
EVALUATION: (*) FIRST CLASS REP high level (ZFac O-series REAL CERAMIC, w/decorated A7750 NON-inverted improved ZP9001/B-V2.5 w/PR indicator) The best option available from July 2015 together with KW-V6Fac w/ ZP9001/B-Seagull V2.
The gen PAM 438 is similar to PAM 441 but has black ceramic bracelet and the movement is P.9001/B which is a P.9001 coated in black colour with greyish inscriptions. They have the same dial PAM 359 type but with GMT function added.
This watch was presented in 2012 0-series. PAM 438 is a Luminor 1950 3 Days GMT Automatic Ceramica, it is on black ceramic bracelet and is called “Tuttonero†due to pure black matte look of the watch, which gives it a nice stealth look. It is a case made of Black ceramic 44mm, fitted with manual-wind mechanical Panerai P.9001/B calibre, this movement is the same as P.9000 but is fitted with a Little back Power Reserve indicator and has black coated bridges and parts.
Functions: hours, minutes, small seconds, date, 2nd time zone, power reserve indicator on the back, seconds reset, Crystal: Sapphire (2.3 mm) and display caseback with darkened sapphire crystal. GMT function in gen is 12 hrs. GMT hand turns once every 12 hrs. This is not possible in replica movements, therefore in reps we will have GMT hand turning once every 24hrs.

There are in 2013 some cheap reps is SS black DLC coated fieetd with cheap movements and no interesting as replicas.

January 2014- ZFac releases a rep PAM 438 O-series made of SS DLC coated, previously sanblastred or beadblasted to get the appearance of gen black ceramic case-set.
The PAM 438 TUTTONERO released by ZFac seems a good attempt to get a First Class replica.
It is really well built and the finish is nice, colour and surface finish seem accurate to get a ceramic-like appearance. Sandblasted or beadblasted treatment is applied, instead of brushing, before DLC coating to get the ceramic texture appearance.
This replica is fitted with a black decorated A7750 based movement, which features a false Power Reserve indicator
Overall is an accurate replica and you would need to know a little the gen and the black P.9001/B movement to tell the replica without a thorough observation. Unfortunately, due to the info currently available, many people are able to know every detail for any watch in some minutes. Therefore the work of replica makers is more and more hard.
Regarding gen and rep comparisons we need to clarify several points:
-Polemic inscription CERAMICA is correct. Because some catalogues and prototypes show CERAMIC but watches in the market have CERAMICA.
-Deployant clasp is SS natural silver colour like gen.
-Gen AR is single-side and not strong like in PAM 359 and similar
See this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZHu1omDP8c
In this ZFac PAM 438 we can see, by the pics and info available, some clear flaws of different types.
1-Flaws impossible to be corrected without using a real clone movement (impossible at this moment)
2-Flaws impossible to be corrected without using the correct ceramic material (not impossible but difficult and with other problems at this moment)
3-Flaws more or less easy to be corrected and that could have been avoided with a more careful project, design or manufacture. Anyway perfectly correctable flaws at this moment.
These last flaws, it is a pity that makers, maybe for sloppiness or pressed by the commercial competition, cannot avoid them. In this way, we get in the market very good replicas, after many time, efforts and money spent, but with several “silly†flaws which ruin a well made work
1-Flaws impossible to be corrected without using a real clone movement (impossible at this moment)
-Since it is a decorated like P.9001 movement based on A7750, it features false Power Reserve indicator, it has some unavoidable inaccuracies and, obviously, inverted layout like other decorated A7750 based movements. See balance wheel @7 in gen and @11 in rep. Besides, due to A7750 subdial @9 position, the seconds subdial is a little displaced, few noticeable.

ZFac BLACK DECORATED A7750 MOVEMENT LIKE P.9001/B. WITH PR INDICATOR
-GMT function with one turn every 24 hrs of GMT hand, instead of 12hrs. like gen. There is no solution for this issue with a rep movement.
2-Flaws impossible to be corrected without using the correct ceramic material (not impossible but difficult and with other problems at this moment)
-Since the rep is made of SS DLC and the gen is real ceramic, the rep weight is much higher. This difference could be decreased using Titanium instead of SS, but anyway the weight would be also lighter.
3-Flaws more or less easy to be corrected and that could have been avoided with a more careful project, design or manufacture. Anyway perfectly correctable flaws at this moment.
-Inaccurate fonts and placements of inscription on movement decoration bridges
-Inaccurate colour of movement inscriptions, it is too white instead of greyish or silver like gen ones.
-Inaccurate text about number of jewels. Gen is 29 twenty-nine and rep says 28 twenty-eight
-Decoration jewels seem black painted in rep
-Inaccurate fonts on caseback engravings. Mainly TUTTONERO is wrong and bad defined. See mainly the ugly “Râ€
-Wrong shape of lever tip. It is clearly narrower and more rounded in outer side. Gen has a shape with increasing width from the base to the tip, rep shape is more uniform from base to tip. Lever end in contact with the crown has also wrong narrower shape.
-Crown seems a little narrower.
-The CG hollow to shelter the crown need more angled shape like a “Dâ€
-Dial markers seems fine but a bit white on pics, but in person colour seems more creamy vintage like Gen.
Due to that we could classify this rep as a First Class replica bordering lower status.
More info here:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=168891 by mysterio
http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=221230 by mysterio
http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=221213 by ghoatson
Small review:
http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=222668&p=2399598#post2399598 by Kalengkong

October 2014- KW-V6Fac released a PAM 438 O-series made of real ceramic (together with ceramic PAM 441). That was a true revolution in PAM reps because there was no real ceramic PAM reps aside the PAM 292.
This rep is fitted with a new rep P.9001/B V2 decorated movement from KW that we can call KP9001/B-V2. It is based on A7750 with a non inverted layout decoration. Of course balance wheel is still place @11 instead of @7 like gen. In this way the movement has the same layout as the gen but the placement is completely rotated. The bridges have the same shape as other non inverted KW movements like KP9000-V2. Main decoration bridge has a false power reserve circular indicator typical of P.9001 movements. Movement is black coated like gen and looks nice mainly under the darkened caseback crystal which hides somehow the inaccuracies of the decorated movement. Inscription on bridges are a bit whiter than gen, the text and inscriptions are different from previous versions and it is pending to check the accuracy. OFFICINE PANERAI inscription and logo on the rotor are nicely raised and with a nice silver colour. Overall the movement is accurate enough. Be careful because first announcements on catalogues showed movements with wrong TWENTY EIGHT and inverted layout decorated movements, and it could have a first batch with that movement.
The ceramic case and screwed ceramic bezel (with a good AR crystal) have an awesome finish and colour just like gen, lugs contours are the same as gen and the inner corner is rounded like all gen PAM ceramic cases. The CG is nicely made and has almost perfect chamfered corners like gen. The ceramic lever is very accurate and works smoothly with nicely finished pin. The bracelet is real ceramic, it is made with a high quality and gen appearance, just with the same finish and colour as the case, this is a nice feature since gen has this kind of uniformity and gives to the watch a nice stealth character. Caseback with darkened crystal has correct engravings, otherwise PAM 441 which started with wrong inscription of CERAIMC instead of CERAMIC. Dial has accurate shape and thickness of the markers sandwich cutouts either in big or little numerals and the date wheel is accurate in font and colour with a date window with black inner edges. Lume is accurate ecru vintage and strong enough. Hands and hand lume are accurate. Only the CP is a bit recessed and a bit pointed. Of course the rep GMT function is 24 hrs. whereas gen has GMT12hrs.
To get more and perfect info about this nice rep, read below Review and pictorial by mysterio
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=200231 by mysterio
http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=90206&pid=1466195&st=0&#entry1 466195 by mysterio
http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=241490 by mysterio
And it is also very informative the review of KW PAM 441 Ceramic by Polonus, since this watch have the same case (just different caseback, movement and strap)
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=200104 by Polonus
Unfortunately, as you can see in a post by hifiskipper, the minute hand is clearly shorter than gen, the same as in previous KW versions:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=200231&p=2066246&viewfull=1#post-2066246 by hifiskipper
This issue was corrected in last batches, but you should be careful with QC pics and buying pre-owned watches
As above said this is a fantastic rep to be fully enjoyed, just CP and GMT 24 hrs. function together with the decorated movement don’t allow top get a Super rep status but the overall quality is among the best found on reps. Maybe the nicest rep ceramic case ever made. Seeing this watch we can realize how far of the gen were the previous reps of this watch.
I would say this rep is a little step over the KW PAM 441 ceramic due to a more accurate caseback and movement (non inverted). We can give this rep an evaluation of First Class rep medium level (due to shorter minute hand)
More info here:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=198670 by Snaaakeey
http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=240237 by mclee
http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=88824&pid=1450323&st=0&#entry1 450323 by dragonette
http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=240763&page=4 by Puretime
Review and pictorial KW PAM 441 Ceramic valid for KW PAM 438 Ceramic case-set
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=200104 by Polonus
Review and pictorial by mysterio
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=200231 by mysterio
http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=90206&pid=1466195&st=0&#entry1 466195 by mysterio
http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=241490 by mysterio


April 2015- KW-V6Fac released a rep of PAM 438 O-series, made of real Ceramic. This rep is fitted with a movement fitted with a new KP9001/B-Seagull V2 decorated movement like P.9001/B with correct NON-inverted layout based on Seagull ST2555. Since this movement is Seagull based, the balance wheel is placed @6 instead of @7 like gen movement and is much bigger than gen. This placement @6 is an advantage over the A7750 based movements, because it is closer to gen placement @7 than in A7750 which have the balance wheel @11. This movement has correct layout the same as gen. Bridges shape is not yet a mirror image of the gen but a copy of the gen bridges shape. Balance cock orientation is now exactly the same as gen. In the same way the inscriptions are placed and oriented just like gen. This NON-inverted layout is achieved by a technical trick: Maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen. In this case maker has not reduced the real balance cock, just like ZFac improved V2.5 and KW NON-inverted decorations, and leaves it hidden under the regulation device and the false escapement wheel. It is really enough, because you cannot see the real balance cock without a close inspection and always knowing this matter, anyway it is more visible than in A7750 based movements. This avoids the possible problems produced by the reduction of the real balance cock. As above commented maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen has, in this movement the shape of this decoration balance cock is much more accurate than ZFac V2, very similar to ZFac improved V2.5 and KW V2. In this way the movement main bridges can get a layout the same as the gen watch, with bridges inscriptions placed in correct orientation.
Bridges inscriptions have accurate fonts. The finish, colour and thickness of fonts are accurate enough and with some variations between batches, but overall seems better than A7750.
The overall layout is correct, but the accuracy of inscription positions, in relation with the case, is impossible because, as above said, rep balance wheel is placed @6, then all inscriptions are displaced due to that, but much less than in A7750 based movements where the balance wheel is placed @11. This movement has a shape and size of the balance wheel “hole†very accurate, but smaller than A7750 based movements and gen, getting a great gen-like appearance but inferior than A7750 movements.
With above mentioned features this KP9001/B-Seagull V2 movement has overall better accuracy than previous versions, making this movement the most accurate decorated based P.9000 starting 2015 with advantage over the A7750 based decorations either Zfac V2.5 or KW V2. Besides Seagull movement is cheaper and overall more reliable.
Although above improvements always bear in mind that, despite these movements have NON-inverted layout, they still have the balance wheel placed @6 instead of @7 like gen. Everything is placed in the same orientation but in different position from gen and the balance wheel zone (balance wheel “hole†and decoration of balance cock) seems in this movement much more accurate than in ZFAc V2, very similar to ZFac V2.5 and KW V2.
The rest of this rep remains almost the same as previous KW-V6Fac version fitted with decorated A7750 NON-inverted. Just the CP is better than A7750 versions. Maker had corrected the length of the minute hand in last batches of previous version, therefore we could consider corrected this flaw in this new version, but, anyway, we should be careful with QCpics and buying pre-owned reps.
A better movement and nicer CP allows an evaluation of First Class rep high level (with corrected length of minute hand). This is IMO the best option available from April 2015, together with ZFac w/ decorated A7750 improved ZP9001/B-V2.5.
More info here:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/225180-My-brand-new-Tuttonero by Therion666
http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=101599 by thrn
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/249599-witch-pam-438-is-better-ZF-or-V6F by maximalek
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/214240-Opinions-on-pam438 by Crazivi3tdude
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/215765-pam-438-kw-seagull-tuttonero by Sead


July 2015- ZFac released a rep of PAM 438 O-series in real ceramic.This rep is fitted with a new ZP9001/B-V2.5 improved decorated movement like P.9001/B with correct NON-inverted layout still based on A7750, but improved in relation with the previous version V2. Since this movement is A7750 based, the balance wheel is much bigger than gen and it is still placed @11 instead of @7 like gen movement, but it has correct layout the same as gen. Bridges shape is not yet a mirror image of the gen but a copy of the gen bridges shape. Balance cock orientation is now exactly the same as gen. In the same way the inscriptions are placed and oriented just like gen. This NON-inverted layout is achieved by a technical trick: Maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen, the same as previous version, but in this case maker has not reduced the real balance cock, just like KW decorations, and leaves it hidden under the regulation device and the false escapement wheel. It is really enough, because you cannot see the real balance cock without a close inspection and always knowing this matter. This is the first improvement, avoiding the possible problems produced by the reduction of the real balance cock. As above commented maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen has, but in this movement the shape of this decoration balance cock is much more accurate than previous one, this is the second improvement. In this way the movement main bridges can get a layout the same as the gen watch, with bridges inscriptions placed in correct orientation. The paint and finish are good enough.
Bridges inscriptions are more accurate in fonts and better defined than inverted version. We have to say that the new ZP9000-V2.5 has very nice inscriptions, even in the rotor, with thin fonts, sharp and well defined and in my opinion clearly better than previous inverted versions from ZFac or KW.
The overall layout is correct, but the accuracy of inscription positions, in relation with the case, is impossible because, as above said, rep balance wheel is placed @11, then all inscriptions are displaced due to that. In this movement maker has introduced another improvement modifying the shape of bridges decoration to get a rep balance wheel “hole†almost the same as gen. With above mentioned improvements this ZP9001/B-V2.5 movement has better accuracy than previous version, making this movement the most accurate decorated A7750 based P.9000 starting 2015 together with the KW decorated P.9001/B NON-inverted KP9001/B-V2.
Those are significant improvements but always bear in mind that, although these movements have NON-inverted layout, they still have the balance wheel placed @11 instead of @7 like gen. Everything is placed in the same orientation but in different position from gen and the balance wheel zone (balance wheel “hole†and decoration of balance cock) seems in this movement much more accurate than in ZFAc V2.
The rest of the watch is really nice with a ceramic case in the same level as KW-V6Fac version. We can consider an evaluation similar to the KW-V6Fac w/Seagull NON-inverted: First Class rep high level. This is IMO the best option available from July 2015, together with KW-V6Fac w/decorated Seagull KP9001/B-Seagull V2.
More info here:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/249599-witch-pam-438-is-better-ZF-or-V6F by maximalek
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/214240-Opinions-on-pam438 by Crazivi3tdude

 

[mysterio]

No, I did not make it, ALE7575 did. I did however contribute in some part with threads that were referenced. I would advise others to simply go visit the thread and (it's in my signature) search for the model using CTRL+F, PAM XXX (take note of the space between PAM and the model number. Locking this thread down to keep things tidy.