Why do reps have such poor WR capabilities??

[squashlover]

I understand the poor build quality or assembly from the factory issue BUT due to the recent higher quality of the 1:1 builds coming out, why do reps STILL suffer from poor water resistance (pressure tested to depth)?

For example, one could pick up a Seiko Monster or equivalent Orient Diver for around $150 and know 100% that the watch would function FLAWLESSLY and be FULLY water-resistant to its 200m claim.

Even reps that get a service from a watch smith or modder RARELY pass a pressure test of 100m and most range from 50-70m, WTF??

The newer 1:1 builds look and feel amazing for the value but again I am shocked sometimes to see that a $150 Seiko, Orient, Citizen, or equivalent is still functionally SUPERIOR to reps costing 3-4 times MORE!! What gives, hope someone can enlighten me on this as logically it does not make any sense to me. Given the quality of the cases used and materials available today, I still do not understand why these reps suffer from such poor water-resistance capabilities (structural integrity).

Any and all opinions welcome.

 

[frankt8242]

Do you ask all your..>>>

questions on all the forums all the time...???icard:icard:

 

[45acp]

If I had to guess, one thing might be the greater incidence and degree of production variances of different component parts. The specs just aren't as precise or consistent, so the different pieces of a watch can't reasonably be expected to fit together as perfectly as something made in a more advanced operation.

The TC Sub bezels are a good example of this. Most will fit a gen bezel, some won't. The matierals are fine, but every bezel (or caseback, or tube, or whatever) isn't dimensionally identical.

 

[squashlover]

And why not? Trying to acquire knowledge from all the forums makes perfect sense since some might have more information on this topic than others. When seeking information I would think it best to broaden one's scope, YMMV.

questions on all the forums all the time...???icard:icard:

 

[d4m.test]

Probably because this is the factory where reps come from.

 

[squashlover]

Probably because this is the factory where reps come from.

Like I said in my post, I do understand the lack of WR from the factory BUT I do not understand why EVEN AFTER A PROPER SERVICING from a watch smith, who should replace gaskets and seals to make the watch capable to withstand pressure to depth, the rep still is averaging around 50m-70m instead of >100m.

To put things into further perspective, take a look at the micro brands such as Helson, Deep Blue, Boschett, Zenton, etc... These micro brands are selling watches averaging $400-$700.

The micro brands DO achieve amazing build quality, functionality, and proper pressure tested WR for slightly more $ than the reps. Just take a look at the offerings from Helson, Deep Blue, Zenton, Boschett, etc... These companies offer dive watches which ARE capable of 2000m ratings and have documented proof of people taking their respective watches on dives, some at serious depths (professional divers). From what I have read and understand, some of these companies are using a Chinese Vicker case although there are others using different ones. Regardless, the assembly IS in China.

I, for one, would pay more for a rep that was AT LEAST capable of swimming comfortably with and not have to worry about the structural integrity of the watch. It does seem pointless to buy a "diver's" watch and not be at least capable to swim with it without fear of water damage.

BTW, take a look at this depth chart to understand what depth rating means in a real world setting.

Interpretation of the Depth Ratings

Although a watch may be rated 30m/99ft water resistant, it does NOT mean that the watch can be immersed to that depth. The depth rating posted by the manufacturer is theoretical in nature and can only be achieved in a perfectly optimum environment of a laboratory - which is impossible to replicate in real life.

Water Resistance Guide
No Rating - 30m/99ft Does not allow contact with water
30m/99ft - 50m/165ft Allows for contact with water such as washing hands and rain
50m/165ft - 100m/330ft Allows for light poolside swimming
100m/330ft - 200m/660ft Allows for swimming, snorkeling and showering (do not expose to hot water)
200m/660ft - 500m/1650ft Allows for impact water sports such as board diving and scuba diving
500m/1650ft + Appropriate for serious deep water diving.

 

[parly]

Probably because this is the factory where reps come from.

lmao... but true... so very true

 

[hartdoc]

I wore my Ploprof down to 175 ft today.

 

[daytona4me]

Replicas are not and have never been designed to be of fine quality, this is an industry where "close enough" is good enough. Do you honestly thing that a maker would destroy a run of 500 dials because something is slightly off? The answer is no... it is "close enough" it is only a replica. So if a case die is off by 2.3 microns thus not allowing a tight seal with the caseback, do you think they will toss a run of cases? No, same goes for the die itself, do you think they will make another one? Not a chance.

What you guys call V1, V2, V3, etc.. are really just different runs of dials, etc. where something was identified and attempted to be corrected, usually only to fix the one problem and create another.

So.. "What gives, hope someone can enlighten me on this as logically it does not make any sense to me."....... what gives is when things are close enough... they are close enough.

 

[idontknow]

If I had to guess, one thing might be the greater incidence and degree of production variances of different component parts. The specs just aren't as precise or consistent, so the different pieces of a watch can't reasonably be expected to fit together as perfectly as something made in a more advanced operation.

The TC Sub bezels are a good example of this. Most will fit a gen bezel, some won't. The matierals are fine, but every bezel (or caseback, or tube, or whatever) isn't dimensionally identical.

This is the best explanation. If non-standard part etc are used (in conjunction with the different production variances, WR would be close to impossible since your garden variety watch guy wouldn't know the exact size o-rings/seals to use to make up for these variances. This won't even make up for the finishing of metal parts and such that will NEVER allow for a proper seal.

Not difficult at all to understand. You are really over thinking it.

I only have one watch that sees water (to include my gen SMP), and it is a Timex Ironman digital that is used for timing my laps in the pool.

 

[Arism]

Most reps are not designed for WR, they are designed to replicate the look and feel of a watch. Granted there are some exceptions but the rep factories cannot not provide the level of QC required on the components(Case, crystal, bezel etc) to guarantee WR of their watches.

Economically, it is not feasible for the rep factories to ensure WR through QC as they produce thousands of watches, most with small profit margins when compared with gens.

As for WR after servicing by a watchsmith, he can only do so much. He can replace the gaskets etc but he most likely wound not reshape the case/parts to ensure or improve a rep's WR capability. If you are lucky and happen to get a WR rep, it would be foolish to think that a rep you bought for <$500 is going to perform in the same way as a gen that costs double, triple or more. The materials used often have manufacturing flaws that prevent them from have the same WR as gens.

 

[d4m.test]

Even simpler explanation:

Normal watch manufacturers design each piece to fit each other, like jigsaw puzzle pieces. They design the entire watch, then make sure each puzzle piece fits perfectly for water resistance.

Rep watch manufacturers copy each individual puzzle piece the best and/or cheapest they can. They don't look at the big picture very much, they just make sure each piece is good enough, then slap it together.

We all know they could do better, but then they'd cost as much as gens.

 

[TastyTreats]

Like I said in my post, I do understand the lack of WR from the factory BUT I do not understand why EVEN AFTER A PROPER SERVICING from a watch smith, who should replace gaskets and seals to make the watch capable to withstand pressure to depth, the rep still is averaging around 50m-70m instead of >100m.

To put things into further perspective, take a look at the micro brands such as Helson, Deep Blue, Boschett, Zenton, etc... These micro brands are selling watches averaging $400-$700.

The micro brands DO achieve amazing build quality, functionality, and proper pressure tested WR for slightly more $ than the reps. Just take a look at the offerings from Helson, Deep Blue, Zenton, Boschett, etc... These companies offer dive watches which ARE capable of 2000m ratings and have documented proof of people taking their respective watches on dives, some at serious depths (professional divers). From what I have read and understand, some of these companies are using a Chinese Vicker case although there are others using different ones. Regardless, the assembly IS in China.

I, for one, would pay more for a rep that was AT LEAST capable of swimming comfortably with and not have to worry about the structural integrity of the watch. It does seem pointless to buy a "diver's" watch and not be at least capable to swim with it without fear of water damage.

BTW, take a look at this depth chart to understand what depth rating means in a real world setting.

Interpretation of the Depth Ratings

Although a watch may be rated 30m/99ft water resistant, it does NOT mean that the watch can be immersed to that depth. The depth rating posted by the manufacturer is theoretical in nature and can only be achieved in a perfectly optimum environment of a laboratory - which is impossible to replicate in real life.

Water Resistance Guide
No Rating - 30m/99ft Does not allow contact with water
30m/99ft - 50m/165ft Allows for contact with water such as washing hands and rain
50m/165ft - 100m/330ft Allows for light poolside swimming
100m/330ft - 200m/660ft Allows for swimming, snorkeling and showering (do not expose to hot water)
200m/660ft - 500m/1650ft Allows for impact water sports such as board diving and scuba diving
500m/1650ft + Appropriate for serious deep water diving.

what a post - hilarious - made my day - so awesome ! - in stitches - your not wrong thou.

 

[squashlover]

Even simpler explanation:

Normal watch manufacturers design each piece to fit each other, like jigsaw puzzle pieces. They design the entire watch, then make sure each puzzle piece fits perfectly for water resistance.

Rep watch manufacturers copy each individual puzzle piece the best and/or cheapest they can. They don't look at the big picture very much, they just make sure each piece is good enough, then slap it together.

We all know they could do better, but then they'd cost as much as gens.

I understand your points BUT what about the so called current 1:1 builds from gen examples? If I understand it properly the rep companies reverse engineer the gen examples and create reps from them. Does that not mean that they have to use CNC machines which are capable of producing EXACT copies of these cases?

For example, I have read that "DarthAlex" has had success pressure testing several Rolex reps to beyond 150m and these are NOT 1:1 examples.

Also read that some 1:1 reps such as the Ploprof, due to case design, has successfully been tested to beyond 300m as well. I have a gen Ploprof 1200M and DON'T expect a rep to perform exactly like the gen BUT if indeed it was built on a CNC machine to exact standards (1:1) I would think it would at least be functionally capable of achieving adequate depth. The rep Ploprof is the only watch I have read so far that has been successfully pressure tested to 300m and beyond.

I guess I was just hoping that because of the CNC machines being used for the making of the parts, I figured the cases would function better than they have been tested. Again I understand the lack of function and pressure test from the factory BUT after a proper servicing and use of proper gaskets which have been greased and sealed I feel a little disappointed to read the results of other people's findings.

I have several incoming 1:1 reps and will have them properly serviced and sealed. Guess we will see what the results will bring.

 

[Q5?]

1:1 reps are unicorns........

 

[goonx]

I understand your points BUT what about the so called current 1:1 builds from gen examples? If I understand it properly the rep companies reverse engineer the gen examples and create reps from them. Does that not mean that they have to use CNC machines which are capable of producing EXACT copies of these cases?

For example, I have read that "DarthAlex" has had success pressure testing several Rolex reps to beyond 150m and these are NOT 1:1 examples.

Also read that some 1:1 reps such as the Ploprof, due to case design, has successfully been tested to beyond 300m as well. I have a gen Ploprof 1200M and DON'T expect a rep to perform exactly like the gen BUT if indeed it was built on a CNC machine to exact standards (1:1) I would think it would at least be functionally capable of achieving adequate depth. The rep Ploprof is the only watch I have read so far that has been successfully pressure tested to 300m and beyond.

I guess I was just hoping that because of the CNC machines being used for the making of the parts, I figured the cases would function better than they have been tested. Again I understand the lack of function and pressure test from the factory BUT after a proper servicing and use of proper gaskets which have been greased and sealed I feel a little disappointed to read the results of other people's findings.

I have several incoming 1:1 reps and will have them properly serviced and sealed. Guess we will see what the results will bring.

1:1 reps aren't really 1:1. Like you said, it's reserved engineered to "look" like gens. Maybe they'll get 98% or 99% of the piece right.

That leaves room for error and tiny tiny holes which makes the watch less WR.

Dont get me wrong thoough, the WR properties of modern reps are incredibly "decent".

 

[trailboss99]

I understand your points BUT what about the so called current 1:1 builds from gen examples? If I understand it properly the rep companies reverse engineer the gen examples and create reps from them. Does that not mean that they have to use CNC machines which are capable of producing EXACT copies of these cases?

For example, I have read that "DarthAlex" has had success pressure testing several Rolex reps to beyond 150m and these are NOT 1:1 examples.

Also read that some 1:1 reps such as the Ploprof, due to case design, has successfully been tested to beyond 300m as well. I have a gen Ploprof 1200M and DON'T expect a rep to perform exactly like the gen BUT if indeed it was built on a CNC machine to exact standards (1:1) I would think it would at least be functionally capable of achieving adequate depth. The rep Ploprof is the only watch I have read so far that has been successfully pressure tested to 300m and beyond.

I guess I was just hoping that because of the CNC machines being used for the making of the parts, I figured the cases would function better than they have been tested. Again I understand the lack of function and pressure test from the factory BUT after a proper servicing and use of proper gaskets which have been greased and sealed I feel a little disappointed to read the results of other people's findings.

I have several incoming 1:1 reps and will have them properly serviced and sealed. Guess we will see what the results will bring.

Hey there is a very good chance that your reps will have good WR but until you test you can never be sure. My 1680 is tested to 50m deeper than the gen, my WM9 sub pulled up at 300m easy, I have also seen a crystal pop from a WM9 at 30m out of the box.

 

[45acp]

Does that not mean that they have to use CNC machines which are capable of producing EXACT copies of these cases?

This question has already been answered a few times in this thread, and the answer is both yes and no. Unlike a genuine manufacturer whose customers expect perfection and water resistance to the rating on the dial, rep manufacturers are not going to throw out a case, caseback, tube, whatever, because it's 1-2 microns out of spec. In fact, they probably don't even measure individual parts to make sure that they are all that much in spec. Why would they? As mentioned above, their goal is to replicate appearance, not so much function. And if they did that kind of QC, throwing out parts that are imperceptibly out of spec, the cost of reps would be considerably higher than they are now.

 

[ajs914]

On top of that they are slapped together as quick as possible.

 

[d4m.test]

As everyone has said here, it's a lottery. They're made to look 1:1, and they'll end up with different movements, which might mean different sized crown stems in a hole made for a much larger one. Or chrono buttons that are so cheaply made internally because nobody will notice until you open it up. Or maybe just cheap glue on the crystal.

To increase your chances of having a rep with good WR, don't get a chronograph or something with fancy buttons or openings on the case. Get something with a screw down crown.

I debated on getting a rep diver for vacations with lots of underwater activities, but finally decided to just get a Seiko as well. It's cheaper that way ($130 for the one I wanted!) and I can bring along a new rep watch for other non-water activities with the money I saved on trying to get an expensive diver rep and extra watchsmith service.