Vintage PANERAI: MISTERIOUS Dial Texts

[Perspex Tropic]

I am really interested in the History and background of the Officine Panerai WWII watches as you might have noticed.
I wounder for sometime now about the text on Panerai's Italian Navy Divers watches.
For A start the Dial text "Marina Militare" would have been A dead give away and therefore A liabillty to Decima MAS Combat Swimmer Operations. If A Gamma man was captured, Wich occured often in their Commando missions, The Prisoner would tell A made up story like that he was A suvivor of A shipwrecked Merchantman he would try to win time for his Team-members to finish their mission or escape.
Therefore A Watch advertising that he was part of The Italian Navy would have been very unwanted! (The German Kriegsmarine Watches had no give away text)
Even more strange, The Italian Navy from the 1920's till the 1943 Armistice was A Royal Navy The "Regia Marina"
So It would seem logical that the Text "Marina Militare" Dials where used only after the War, Just like the personified Unit Ingravings on both Xa MAS & Kampfschwimmer Watches.
I have seen Vintage Radiomirs who featured several different Dials, Maybe There was A neutral Dial for Behind The Enemy lines Ops, Just like A soldier has A Formal Dress and A Battle dress and A USN Nuclear Submarine will paint it's Boats Number (Displayed on the Tower) Over before it goes on A War Patrol.

"Swiss made Radiomir, Luminor and Panerai" Did not nesacerly have formed A Problem For the Italian Commandos.
Interestingly The first production watch (1938) had the Anonimous 'Californa' Dial, Wich was actually A Rolex Dial.

Regards,
Kees

 

[hoffman]

What do these cryptic letters mean?

 

[Perspex Tropic]

Are You refering to the "X I X"
"M M"

On the Skeleton Back?
Or my Topic :roll:

Just A Guess, The Roman number 19? and MM could be Marina Militare, Or 2000?
Any idea who's Rep this is Btw?

 

[moggio]

LOL funny but really interesting ..and good point from enzo

 

[Perspex Tropic]

I think your questions are a bit moot.

1) In WWII the two sides used Geneva Convention rules with re: to War Prisoners. So if you were captured, you really wouldn't want be covet. Spys were shot or hung, POWs went to prison camps. Hiding your identity was a risky aspect. Better to be an identifiable enemy than a covert spy ...

2) As well having any kind of giant DIVE watch strapped on your arm from 1930-1950s and trying to convince anyone you weren't in the military? That's like an Astronaut in a space suit trying to convince someone he's a Bus Driver ... Diving wasn't a recreational sport in this age, it was a top secret military occupation. The small private sector that existed, didn't have such naff equipement as waterproof watches ... Text or no text, the object was more telling than anything printed on it.

3) Most WWII Military watches were marked by the nation of issue. UK, USA, Germany, Japan, Poland, Czech, and others all marked their watches with designations of Service and other Identification info.

In WWI Pilots were required to retrieve their Pocket Watches from the crashed plane if they were mobile after the event and not doing so could lead to severe penalties.

Aah The 'Swiss' Hoffman, 1943....Now I understand! [smilie=tongue7.gif]

Enzo...
I have studied Special Ops and Units, Submarines, Off WWII & Vietnam Wars for decades with A special Interest for Combat Swimmers As I am A long time Free Diver and was trained and guided Survival Trainings togheter With A Dutch Royal Marine Combat Swimmer Veteran.
I can Asure you that Military Units or persons (Like Luigi Ferraro The Gamma Combat Simmer who sunk three Ships by himself) who go on A Covert or behind Enemylines mission, Make Sure not to give Away their Unit exept their Rank and Military number. In Clandestine missions like Operating in A Neutral Country extra care is taken. Any proof like Labels in clothing is removed and once Captured they Do Run the Risk of beeing shot As A spy! Their own Governement would Denounce to know the Prisoners in A Diplomatic diffcult Situation (Some Decima Mas have been shot By the Allies)
The Italian Combat Swimmers would discard their equipment Set A timed fuse to Blow Up their SLC, When they entered Enemy or Neutral Ground triyng to escape back to their own lines.

So I just woundered Wich Dial the Italians used during operations, Their watch may have had several as do some Contemperary 3646 Suvivors.
It is possible they Used The "Radiomir Panerai" Dial, Still Explane to me why They Would have Marina Militare on the Dial If the correct name (Till 1943 at least) would have been "Regia Marina"?
As whe are talking About the first purpose build Navy Divers watch, how would The capturer recognize it As such?
One of the Xa MAS divers who was Caught, Almost Bluffed his way out telling he was shipwrecked and washed ashore, At first they beliefed him untill A British Officer noticed that he had recently Shaved Face. But he probaly did buy his fellow Swimmers time to complete their mission.
I am going way deep into detail here (Sombody comented me to be A Swiss Clock, Critisim on his behalf, compliment to me) maybe because I am A artist who is specialized in detailed Historic reconstruction drawings,
Btw Enzo with 'Pocket watch' You refer to the WWII Luftwaffe Chronometer Clock that was attached to the Cockpit panel, During the flight?
Thanks for the replys,
Kees

 

[Perspex Tropic]

Grazie Enzo,

That was A intersesting answer!
Shed's some Light on the Complex hapenings That A World War seems to Change The World into, And Especially History!
What do you think for instance about that story the owner of A vintage 3646 told on the BBC Antiques roadshow, Quote BBC Site;

" This wristwatch belonged to the owner's friend, whose father and uncles were stationed on the bridge at Nijmegen at the battle of Arnhem in 1944 during World War Two. It is said to have come from one of two German divers who were shot while they were driving a motorised torpedo. After they had come to the surface they were buried, but not before the soldiers had recovered the war booty, which included the watch. The watch is a piece of specialist kit, made for underwater use. It has a leather strap, a large dial and luminous numerals, so it could be read underwater. The valuation very much depends on whether the story behind the watch can be proved."


The value (based upon verification) was set at £20,000.

Interestingly The Watch Has The "Radiomir Panerai" Ingravings on the dial!?
A Black leather Strap claimed to be the original, It does not look 60 Years (The photos don't show the Buckle)
The Wire Strap Attachment has been clearly roughly Removed and soldered back badly (Discoloured) and the where the Wire loop goes into the Case has been thorn open on the other side.
A Italian Who fought till the bitter end all the way to my Northern Homecountry with his former Axis Fellows?
Or A German who recieved one From The 10th Flotillia during his training or fighting in Italy?

War is A complex Chaotic mix up of hapenings, that are usally simplyfied Avant-le lettre.

Do you have any adresses of forums that deal with these topics?

Regards,
Kees

Btw, I understood You where refering to the Great War, But in WWII There was A simular procedure for The Luftwaffe's Cockpit Chronometers.

 

[Niko]

The episode of UK Antiques Roadshow that Perspex Tropic is referring to screened locally last night and I saw the 3646 'Nijmegen Bridges Watch' and heard the stroy behind it. It was really great to see this watch and hear how it had come into the possession of it's new owner.

Anyway, I have done some research on this watch and it has since been placed up for auction after being verified by Panerai, with an expected price of US$45-55,000. I attach a pic of the watch as it appeared in the auction brochure along with some details which those of us who are interested in vintage Pams may find interesting.




“The Nijmegen Bridges Watchâ€

 

[hooligan]

Nice! Thanks for the update, Niko. Now, the big question is, if you bought a ~$50K vintage like that, would you wear it? :wink:

The blued hands look pretty sharp...

 

[Niko]

Nice! Thanks for the update, Niko. Now, the big question is, if you bought a ~$50K vintage like that, would you wear it? :wink:

I would really have to think about that one Peeps. Given that it would be one of the most expensive Panerais on the planet, I think I would try and preserve it as best as possible.

That is not to say that I would not immediately contact Enzo and beg and plead for him to make me a replica of it. That way, I get it all!

This watch did sell, by the way. It went for $55,000 as soon as it came up for auction.