The Swiss vs. the Asians

[pman]

I'm trying to decide if a swiss movement PAM justifies the additional cost. The reason I say this is because I understand all swiss PAM movements are modified with asian parts. Is this correct? Is there a big difference in quality?

I have two reps and they both have swiss movements. But PAMs are a little different and I want to make sure that if I spend the extra money that I'm getting a better quality, more reliable movement. How do you guys feel? Thanks.

 

[crumpdaddy]

The reason I say this is because I understand all swiss PAM movements are modified with asian parts.

Where did you obtain this understanding?

 

[pugwash]

The reason I say this is because I understand all swiss PAM movements are modified with asian parts.

Where did you obtain this understanding?

It is true. The bridges are of Asian origin as ETA doesn't sell Panerai bridges.

 

[PannyLover1]

The Davidsen chinese 6497 seems to be good,
http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=4033
But I'm not sure you can fix the chinese movement with swiss ETA parts (local watchsmith) if it breaks down :?
Maybe the experts know?

 

[pugwash]

To clarify:

Swiss (and I use the term loosely) ETA movements are mildly modified to make our Rep movements. The changes aren't as critical as, say, adding a GMT hand to a 2836, but there are changes. If your ETA Panerai rep brakes, your watchsmith will almost certainly be able to get the parts.

 

[Novesh]

I have me a 177h with an asian mvmt. no problems.

I figure if it breaks ill replace the movement. if it doesn't woot.

either way I saved half the price of a rep in difference of movement.

 

[Roeod4]

Go with an Asian movement. If it breaks you can buy a new one from Davidsen with the cannon fix for $60 or go with a new movement, dial and hands for $100.

http://replica-watch.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1485

If the watch just stops dead this will probably be close to the price of fixing it anyway.

 

[panman8888]

i have both

and no noticeable difference. my watchsmith said my asian was solid and standard to work on for him, whatever that means. all run near perfect, keep time with my gen. save your dough for another watch!

regarding the rumor, my understanding is that eta has factories in asia. and for "swiss marking" about some % of the parts *and/or* labor must be in/from switzerland. so yes, a swiss movement could have asian parts and/or asian labor put in.

no biggie if you ask me. again, they both tend to be solid work horses, especially when the manual wind 6497's are concerned.

 

[babola]

Still leaning towards Swiss in PAM reps myself, whenever possible. While both Swiss ETA and Asian ETA copy mov't are now both produced in Asian factories, there's still a diference in finish, quality, reliability, attention to detail and final QC before the mov't leaves the factory.

Swiss ETA mov'ts are made in ETA factory in China, using ETA original production machinery, while Asian ETA copies aren't. Although Asian ones are quickly approaching quality of Swiss, they're not quite there yet and are made by 'rep ETA' machines.

The only case I'd favour Asian ETA over Swiss currently, is with Asian ETA 6497-2, 21,000 bph 'higher-beat' movements with upgraded mainspring that provides for greater power reserve...very close to a gen PAM, at the fraction of the original Swiss ETA 6497-2 price of $550. DSN is one of the dealers using this movement in his watches extensively.

Modded A7750 28800bph 'high-beat' mov't is another shining example of Asian ingenuity, but (at least for me) it's still early days to say - go for it. That PAM250 with Asian high-beat is definitely on my watch list

cheers,
babola

 

[rolexsub58]

I've had my pam 104 with the asian movement for about 3 weeks now, I set it with the atomic clock and so far it has gained less than one minute. Pretty accurate for $108.00...

 

[nfs060]

GET THE SWISS or The asian form Davidson. Think, if your movement stops working, How mad will you be, how useless your watch is. Plus to rebuild, might as well do it on a swiss background. Also resell value and the swiss can be obtained for not much more if you look hard enough. Plus you have an eta better for parts in the long term. Save your peanuts if you dont have enough. Its worth the wait.

I had a few problems with the asian(not from davison) Its not that some are good, it that some are not. I would never buy anything else again besides eta in the manual, besides davidson`s asian model. IMO
Ziggys reviews are excellent on this model.


Good luck, Hope you strike Gold.

 

[ragerover]

Swiss ETA mov'ts are made in ETA factory in China, using ETA original production machinery, while Asian ETA copies aren't. Although Asian ones are quickly approaching quality of Swiss, they're not quite there yet and are made by 'rep ETA' machines.

If it says SWISS on the movement, then the movement is made in Switzerland.

ETA may obtain parts outside of Switzerland, but all movements marked SWISS should be finished, assembled and timed in Switzerland. Period.

"ETA machinery"? The machines used in the ETA factory to make/cut gears, base plates, etc. can be bought by Asian companies (and many Asian & Russian companies have).

The machines are made by specialist companies. Its like buying an HP EKG machine or Siemens CT scan. Anyone anywhere in the world can purchase them.

The difference between ETA and CN 6497 may have to do with the time spent making the movement, the quality of raw materials, and like Enzo pointed out, expertise. ETA has been making these movements for 80 years.

just my $0.02

 

[pugwash]

If it says SWISS on the movement, then the movement is made in Switzerland.

No it isn't. The Swiss Watch Industry - Swiss Made

ETA may obtain parts outside of Switzerland, but all movements marked SWISS should be finished, assembled and timed in Switzerland. Period.

... and if it says Rolex on the dial, it's made by Rolex? :shock:

The 'swiss' movements in our replicas are made in China. "Period."

 

[ragerover]

If it says SWISS on the movement, then the movement is made in Switzerland.

ETA may obtain parts outside of Switzerland, but all movements marked SWISS should be finished, assembled and timed in Switzerland. Period.

Pugwash, I know what the definitions are for a movement to be called Swiss made. But for those who do not or too lazy to follow to link:

A Swiss watch movement

According to Section 2 OSM, a movement is considered to be Swiss if:

* it has been assembled in Switzerland;
* it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and
* the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.

Ok, I was a bit off. But my point was, ETA is not 100% making movements in Asia and marking them Swiss. Parts are made in Switzerland, and the movement at somepoint in its assembly is in Switerland.

As u can see, atleast 50% of the total value of PARTS (not assembly cost) must be Swiss made and the movement inspected IN SWITZERLAND.

So...ETA is shipping parts kits to Asia, and Asia is shipping movements back to Switzerland for final checkout and inspection.

 

[pugwash]

So...ETA is shipping parts kits to Asia, and Asia is shipping movements back to Switzerland for final checkout and inspection.

Not quite. ETA is manufacturing the majority of their automatic movements in Asia and either selling them or shipping them to Switzerland. Our movements are at the stage just before they go to Switzerland which is why they're mostly dry and unserviced. They are stamped with "Rolex - Swiss Made" on the aftermarket rotors.

The movements are stamped Swiss by the counterfeiters that stamp Panerai, Rolex, Omega et al on them. Why would you believe one printed line of text and not another?

 

[babola]

Ragerover...just as Pugwash said above - period 8)

babola

 

[ragerover]

The movements are stamped Swiss by the counterfeiters that stamp Panerai, Rolex, Omega et al on them. Why would you believe one printed line of text and not another?

I agree with you on that one. Just because it says Rolex or Swiss made on on a rotor, does not mean that it is made by Rolex or made in Switzerland.

But if a cheap, unfinsihed, basic ETA which says "Swiss"on it and has an ETA crest & number stamped under the balance, I usually have no reason to doubt that it is either made or at minimum inspected in Switzerland.

IMHO, looking at the quality of the gears, you can often tell what is "Swiss" and what is counterfeit.

There has been several articles written by Ziggy on RWG showing the differences between Swiss and Asian movements. And yes, it seems there are some CN6497s which have a counterfeit ETA stamp on the movement.

So yes, you can't always believe what you read/see.

But in the big picture, not just the rep market, I still believe that if a movement says Swiss, than its fully or partially built and inspected in Switzerland.

A rep is already counterfeit to begin with, so its no surprise that the movement can be a rep too.

As far as whats better, Swiss or Asian 6497/8, if it really is Swiss, than I believe its better. But a well oiled and adjusted movement can keep good time no matter where its made. The 6497/8 is such a basic movement, that I don't see why the CN-6497/8 can't be made as well as a "genuine" one.

jusy my $0.02

 

[Klink]

The 'swiss' movements in our replicas are made in China. "Period."

true for a long time...

and simple to understand

except for all the confusion that WIS professionals bring to bear..

LOL

Life is Good!
Klink

 

[pugwash]

As far as whats better, Swiss or Asian 6497/8, if it really is Swiss, than I believe its better.

I'm sensing some confusion here between Swiss ETAs, Asian ETAs, Chinese non-ETAs and Chinese ETA-stamped copies. You're talking about two categories when there are at least four.

I presume you're exclusively talking about Panerai replicas here, and the handwind models at that. What we get on our replica Panerais are not exclusively ETA as ETA will not sell you a movement with a Panerai bridge.

 

[Klink]

Pugwash has done his homework...

for me, value for money, with a good dealer... is simple

asian

eta or otherwise...

price difference for those who believe the 'magic' of swiss made.. when there is no magic...

is simple...

very simple... and even Ziggy does not get it.. when he looks at an 'ETA' that was made in CN

he thinks "Wow, and ETA made in Swaziland" LOL

Profit motive and expertise of manufacture.. China....

LOL